<<OK, now I'm curious.  If my memory is correct, you're the second TWL listee
in less than a month to imply that Nordhavns are not all that people think
they are.>>

In this thread, let's be sure we stay on the high road, talking about
the product and our experiences with it, rather than attacking
personalities.

Trawler World List is a public forum and what you write here is not
protected by privilege of any kind.

By subscribing to the Trawler World List, you have agreed that you
will not  post material which libels, defames, abuses or threatens
others, or is inflammatory.

--Georgs

Does anyone remember this caution when the GH37 took some skewed hits? Not
me. I don't know anything about Nordhavns, except what others have said and
the fact that most are very pretty. Georgs was on a segment of the world
cruise that we all followed with interest. Nordhavn is on page 3 of the new
magazine.

Isn't this a little too obvious? No one has even mentioned personalities. Is
this a known problem? I know that no one said a word when the president of
another boat building company was raked over the coals by a single, unhappy
owner. Maybe he wrote Georgs at that time.

Nordhavn's construction practices and designs are usually held up as
positive examples. If the "king" has no clothes, I'd like to know - if
you've got documented facts - because, otherwise, you have just been placed
on notice. It's a good thing that all the diatribes about SeaRays didn't
mention the name of the company president.

Jeesh,
Ron Rogers

----- Original Message -----
From: "Georgs Kolesnikovs" georgs@trawlering.com

| <<OK, now I'm curious.  If my memory is correct, you're the second TWL
listee
| in less than a month to imply that Nordhavns are not all that people think
| they are.>>
|
| In this thread, let's be sure we stay on the high road, talking about
| the product and our experiences with it, rather than attacking
| personalities.
|
| Trawler World List is a public forum and what you write here is not
| protected by privilege of any kind.
|
| By subscribing to the Trawler World List, you have agreed that you
| will not  post material which libels, defames, abuses or threatens
| others, or is inflammatory.
|
| --Georgs

Nordhavn's construction practices and designs are usually held up as
positive examples. If the "king" has no clothes, I'd like to know - if
you've got documented facts - because, otherwise, you have just been placed
on notice. It's a good thing that all the diatribes about SeaRays didn't
mention the name of the company president.

Ron Rogers

REPLY
After  finishing up a job on a customers boat I happened to get into a
conversation with the professional Captain on a Nordhavn 62 in the next slip.
He invited me aboard for a quick tour and look see.

Very nice but I found it a bit cramped to get around.
The skipper told me the owner wanted to sell it because he also found the boat
too confining.
Evidently the owner was rather portly and his girth  made it difficult to get
through some doorways and climb up to the wheelhouse via the inside stairway.
With my arthritic knees I also found the stairs a bit steep for my liking.

When  inspecting a Nordhavn 50  in Miami at Trawlerport I also found that layout
tight- especially the entrance to the engine room.
I guess this comes from  the designers  attempting to  cram as  many features as
possible into a given hull design.
But in fairness this is probably driven by market demands and potential buyers
asking for this that and the other.

You can  nit pick almost anything, including a Rolls Royce.
( it doesn't have standing headroom in the main area and you cannot walk into
the engine compartment < grin> )

Cheers

Arild

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Keith wrote:
I recently went on the older 46 that went around the
world (it was at the recent Seattle Boat Show) and there was a tremendous
difference between finishing of that older boat and newer ones I've been on.

My point is that it would also be a good idea to keep in mind that things
likely have changed over time (for the better or worse).

Keith

REPLY
Yes and a truly impartial  boat test article would mention both plusses and
minuses not just the promotional hype the manufacturers would prefer.

I think the concern her is whether or not such an article would be published or
if the editor preferred discretion to valor  and  avoided any negative mentions
for fear it would scare off present or potential advertisers.

Of course it could be argued that a truly great product would  always get more
bonus points than demerit points by a qualified but unbiased critic.

Unfortunately most marketing people find it hard to resist hyperbole and
inflating the good points.
All too often this leads to statements which  are perceived as being less than
forthright.  And so it goes.

PAE has certainly done their homework when it comes to assessing what  visual
features entice buyers.
For the most part they select  fairly good equipment.
Not necessarily the best and most expensive but certainly not  substandard
equipment that fails to perform as expected.

In realistic terms the perfect boat will never be built. Everything will of
necessity be some form of compromise.
The secret of success is  finding the best fit compromise that the greatest
number of buyers find acceptable enough to prompt them to put down their money.

If I was a boat builder, I know I would never build the same model boat exactly
the same for each copy.
In every case I'd think of some way to "improve"  something or other.

And that would drive the financial guys crazy. We would never make a decent
profit.  < grin >

Cheers

Arild

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Hello All,

Arild wrote regarding the Nordy 62:
<SNIP>
Very nice but I found it a bit cramped to get around.
The skipper told me the owner wanted to sell it because he also found the
boat
too confining.
Evidently the owner was rather portly and his girth  made it difficult to
get
through some doorways and climb up to the wheelhouse via the inside
stairway.
With my arthritic knees I also found the stairs a bit steep for my liking.

When  inspecting a Nordhavn 50  in Miami at Trawlerport I also found that
layout
tight- especially the entrance to the engine room.
I guess this comes from  the designers  attempting to  cram as  many
features as
possible into a given hull design.
<SNIP>
I'd reply:

I chatted with a couple who lived on their N62 at the Coral Marina in
Ensenada.  They were very happy with it but felt it was too "cut up", to use
their words.  The boat has a lot of cabins and decks.  It also has extremely
long legs, a very large engine room and storage for a ton of provisions and
spares.  It is a pure passagemaker that offers adequate room to live aboard.
There are many boats that offer lots more living room.  They have neither
the legs nor the storage space to compete with the Nordy when she's in her
element.

I'm biased; Claudette and I are working as hard and long as we can in order
to acquire a passage capable vessel and get the hell out of dodge.  Still,
they are extremely narrow purpose boats, intended to safely transport you
long distances over blue water.  Once there, working in thin water where
their extreme range and open water seakeeping systems and capabilities
aren't useful, all the areas where the designers refused to compromise their
basic purpose show up as "rolls like a bowling ball" or paravanes too deep
for bay operation, or too darn slow or....whatever.  That's why some owners
can't wait to sell them.  They don't know what they got themselves into.

We are going to buy a transition boat, a Camano 31.  She's fast, rides well
and has about a 600 mile range.  For the weekend boating we're going to be
able to do between now and the time when we can afford a Nordhavn 47, she's
about perfect.  We won't be going to Hawaii in her.  We might manage some
ambitions coastal trips for 14 day windows from time to time but that will
be stretching the limits of the boat and our tolerance to claustrophobia.
For the boating we're intending to do now, the N47, or any Nordhavn outside
of the Coastal Pilot 35 (love it but just can't afford it), would be sheer
torture.  Just think, operating on the Sacramento River with it's 3 knot
current we'd be able to range about 120 miles for a weekend, not even far
enough to get to San Francisco.  No thanks.  But, when we want to head to
the Sea of Cortez and up to Puget Sound, Victoria and Alaska the N47 becomes
the perfect instrument for the job and the Camano heads to a new owner who
will discover the joys of delta boating with her.

Right now, Margery is estatic with her Linssen, a genuinely magnificent boat
in design and execution.  She's operating inshore, frequently in thin water
and close conditions and operating without stabilization aids.  The Linssen
has more living space in roughly equivalent length. The boat more precisely
matches her needs than the N40 ever could.  I can't see how it is the
Nordhavn's fault, per se; it just wasn't a good match of capabilities vs.
needs.  What the Linssen loses capabilities to it's compromises, Margery
never misses because she likely does not desire that feature anyway.  I
wouldn't presume to address any issues with the brokers, that's Margery's
exclusive domain.

Steve Miller at Lemest took me over to the yard where they were
commissioning a new N50 and I had an opportunity to inspect the hull where
they bored the holes for the Interphase Probe transducers.  Wow, what a
thick layup.  The componentry is first class throughout.  You could buy
different equipment but you probably couldn't easily buy significantly
better equipment throughout the boat.  There are very few boats that
approach the level of workmanship evident throughout the Nordhavns and we've
crawled around our fair share of boats these last 2 years.  There are also
some warts but at least the manufacturer makes changes from boat to boat.
This seems to be a consistent practice in the yacht industry where the first
boats are a little different from articles 3,4,or 5 and above.  This months
Passagemaker magazine article on Jet Tern marine and the Selene boats
pointed this practice out as a strength of the company.  I'm not sure I'd
want hull number one of any manufacturers boat and would be much more secure
with hull 100.  I'm pretty sure Margery owned hull number one.

The N50 is pretty small inside, until you get to the engine room and
lazarette; those spaces are huge.  In the N57, John Elway couldn't throw a
football from one end to the other but that's where all the belowdecks room
in the boat disappeared to.  There is also tankage to consider, fuel takes
up space as does water and waste.  Finally, the N47 is much larger feeling
inside than the N50.  Nordhavn decided to go with more freeboard and came
out of the exercise with more interior volume and a stronger sense of
spaciousness than on the N50.  Frankly, to me the N47 "feels" more spacious
below decks than the forward area of the N57.  Not true in terms of cubic
feet but we perceive spaciousness without a tape measure.  The N62 never
approaches the sense of volume below decks as the 47, regardless of the fact
that it is vastly larger in volume and displacement.

I've said this before:  Anything built by man has flaws and suffers problems
and no boat can do it all.  Bob Beebe describes numerous repairs at sea and
compromises he made in the name of seakeeping and range and usage on the
French canal system in his designing Passagemaker.  I've spoken with a
couple Cape Horn owners/brokers and there are things they wish were done
differently.  The Castlemans had a hand in the design and completion of
their Park Isle 57, Fine Romance and there are still things they would
change.  The best equipment you can buy still breaks or requires frequent
maintenance (especially active stabilizer systems) or simply can't be
maintained in some parts of the world.  Real passagemaking is a tough
business and a money pit, more so than the advertising and print articles
lead you to believe.  Russ and Donna Sherwin (Has ANYBODY heard from them in
the last 5 or 6 months?) were enraptured with their N46, Four Seasons and
they perform plenty of work on the boat.  Some acknowledged experts think
they do some things poorly from a conceptual standpoint but don't find fault
with the way they execute their design.  They are also out there pushing
some of the auxiliary equipment vendors to improve their product to the
point that it lives a longer life in the Passagemaking environment.

I didn't jump into the GH37 thread because that was so very subjective and
most of us haven't seen the manufacturers product.  Certainly I don't know
squat about them.  We're ultimately going to spend some serious coin on a
Nordy ourselves so I've made it my business to learn everything possible
about the product and the people behind it and think the Emperor is richly
robed for the passagemaking owner.  I'm not a Nordhavn apologist by any
means.  I just don't think that you can do better for just under a million
dollars if you're actually going to take on blue water, especially with the
demise of Willard production.  If you're not going offshore, I'd recommend
you did some serious soul searching before plunking your money down to see
if you're buying the brand for emotional rather than "practical" reasons.

As if there was anything the least bit practical about what we do...

Best Regards to All,

Frank & Claudette Weismantel
Elverta, CA
Boatless for a little while longer

-----Original Message-----
From: trawler-world-list-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawler-world-list-bounces@lists.samurai.com]On Behalf Of Arild
Jensen

Yes and a truly impartial  boat test article would mention both plusses and
minuses not just the promotional hype the manufacturers would prefer.

Which is why this list is more valuable than any magazine article about a
boat.  I never read review articles about boats in magazines anymore.

FrankB
Kimmell, IN

Frank Bales wrote:--

Which is why this list is more valuable than any magazine article about a
boat.  I never read review articles about boats in magazines anymore.

FrankB

REPLY
All the more reason to keep personalities out of it.
In other words  critique the actual  design facts but do not impunge the person
assumed to be responsible for the design choice.

It also  means we need to examine the design choices based on  the selection
criteria.
Frank makes an excellent  point concerning space use in a passagemaker versus a
liveaboard secured dockside.
The fact my arthritic knees have problems with  steep stairs is a personal issue
not necessarily a valid criticism of a wheelhouse  one story above the
accommodations deck level.

I'm quite sure  that not only Georgs but almost every  boat and equipment
manufacturer realizes the true value of this list.
Companies pay  huge sums of money for focus groups to discuss products and
provide feedback.
Here we do it for free and all a manufacturer has to do is subscribe and lurk.
By now the archives also represent a goldmine of unsolicited  opinions  on
product  use and quality.

Companies would be well advised to take heed when a thread  brings out  concerns
and  critiques related to either the marketing approach or the actual product
quality.

Recent threads concerning the cost of e-charts versus their relative utility  to
the end user is a case in point.
This list is a great way to get the point across  that the present trend  to
maximize profit margins by use of copyright protection may well backfire and
instead alienate the potential customers.

The comments concerning customer service and product functionality ( Raytheon
and Garmin ) when a company has a major change in management is also a warning
as to what might happen if management  fails to consider the impact on the
market place.

cheers

Arild

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Keith Pleas wrote:

My question is, are we at the end of an era when that is even feasible?
There was a very interesting article in the latest "Cruising World" about
how insurance for this kind of activity - particularly for US boats - has
dramatically increased in cost, has substantially increased exclusions, and
is even becoming unobtainiable.

I have seen an explosion in the number of "expedition" / "voyaging" boats being
built and sold relative
to those for coastal cruising. Are we in for a rude correction soon?

Keith

REPLY

Only if people stop dreaming and hoping.
As you said,  some cruisers self insure.
That used to be the norm but then insurance became affordable.
Now the pendulum  is swinging the other way.

I suspect the  events of 9/11 will have a more profound and lasting effect on
cruising than the insurance business does.

Arild

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Curious as to how you (or anyone else) would compare the  Krogen 48 to the
N47.

I went to the Miami boat show and looked at the new Krogen 48 and found it
to be delightful, very spacious, and it certainly seemed to have
passagemaking qualities.  Of course the LOA is actually 53 feet -- not 48
(that's the LOD).

I spoke with the sales guy and asked about how it compared with the
Nordhaven.  He had a comparison sheet that was interesting and seemed to
give the edge to the Krogen on many items.  He really encouraged us to go
look at the Nordhaven at the show, saying that he thought we would find its
layout more cramped than the Krogen.  The Krogen and Nordhaven were very
close so we did go and do a quick comparison and did think that the Krogen
layout was roomier" and more livable than the Nordhaven.  I will say, though
the engine room on the Nordhaven was just super and I have never seen a
better layout or a seemingly easier vessel to work on and service (I did not
get below decks to see the Krogen's).

Of some interest, the Krogen guy said that the N47 could not do the Circle
route because of the dry stack, but that the Krogen could.

I would enjoy knowing if anyone has made more of a hands on comparison of
the two.

Alan Wagner
Tampa Florida
44' Gulstar MY
"Morning Delight"

-------Original Message-------

From: Service@CFX Marine.Com
Date: 02/20/04 03:58:49
To: Trawler-World-List; Arild Jensen
Subject: TWL: RE: RE: Re: Nordhavn

Hello All,

Arild wrote regarding the Nordy 62:
<SNIP>
Very nice but I found it a bit cramped to get around.
The skipper told me the owner wanted to sell it because he also found the
boat
too confining.
Evidently the owner was rather portly and his girth  made it difficult to
get
through some doorways and climb up to the wheelhouse via the inside
stairway.
With my arthritic knees I also found the stairs a bit steep for my liking.

When  inspecting a Nordhavn 50  in Miami at Trawlerport I also found that
layout
tight- especially the entrance to the engine room.
I guess this comes from  the designers  attempting to  cram as  many
features as
possible into a given hull design.
<SNIP>
I'd reply:

I chatted with a couple who lived on their N62 at the Coral Marina in
Ensenada.  They were very happy with it but felt it was too "cut up", to use
their words.  The boat has a lot of cabins and decks.  It also has extremely
long legs, a very large engine room and storage for a ton of provisions and
spares.  It is a pure passagemaker that offers adequate room to live aboard.
There are many boats that offer lots more living room.  They have neither
the legs nor the storage space to compete with the Nordy when she's in her
element.

I'm biased; Claudette and I are working as hard and long as we can in order
to acquire a passage capable vessel and get the hell out of dodge.  Still,
they are extremely narrow purpose boats, intended to safely transport you
long distances over blue water.  Once there, working in thin water where
their extreme range and open water seakeeping systems and capabilities
aren't useful, all the areas where the designers refused to compromise their
basic purpose show up as "rolls like a bowling ball" or paravanes too deep
for bay operation, or too darn slow or....whatever.  That's why some owners
can't wait to sell them.  They don't know what they got themselves into.

We are going to buy a transition boat, a Camano 31.  She's fast, rides well
and has about a 600 mile range.  For the weekend boating we're going to be
able to do between now and the time when we can afford a Nordhavn 47, she's
about perfect.  We won't be going to Hawaii in her.  We might manage some
ambitions coastal trips for 14 day windows from time to time but that will
be stretching the limits of the boat and our tolerance to claustrophobia.
For the boating we're intending to do now, the N47, or any Nordhavn outside
of the Coastal Pilot 35 (love it but just can't afford it), would be sheer
torture.  Just think, operating on the Sacramento River with it's 3 knot
current we'd be able to range about 120 miles for a weekend, not even far
enough to get to San Francisco.  No thanks.  But, when we want to head to
the Sea of Cortez and up to Puget Sound, Victoria and Alaska the N47 becomes
the perfect instrument for the job and the Camano heads to a new owner who
will discover the joys of delta boating with her.

Right now, Margery is estatic with her Linssen, a genuinely magnificent boat
in design and execution.  She's operating inshore, frequently in thin water
and close conditions and operating without stabilization aids.  The Linssen
has more living space in roughly equivalent length. The boat more precisely
matches her needs than the N40 ever could.  I can't see how it is the
Nordhavn's fault, per se; it just wasn't a good match of capabilities vs.
needs.  What the Linssen loses capabilities to it's compromises, Margery
never misses because she likely does not desire that feature anyway.  I
wouldn't presume to address any issues with the brokers, that's Margery's
exclusive domain.

Steve Miller at Lemest took me over to the yard where they were
commissioning a new N50 and I had an opportunity to inspect the hull where
they bored the holes for the Interphase Probe transducers.  Wow, what a
thick layup.  The componentry is first class throughout.  You could buy
different equipment but you probably couldn't easily buy significantly
better equipment throughout the boat.  There are very few boats that
approach the level of workmanship evident throughout the Nordhavns and we've
crawled around our fair share of boats these last 2 years.  There are also
some warts but at least the manufacturer makes changes from boat to boat.
This seems to be a consistent practice in the yacht industry where the first
boats are a little different from articles 3,4,or 5 and above.  This months
Passagemaker magazine article on Jet Tern marine and the Selene boats
pointed this practice out as a strength of the company.  I'm not sure I'd
want hull number one of any manufacturers boat and would be much more secure
with hull 100.  I'm pretty sure Margery owned hull number one.

The N50 is pretty small inside, until you get to the engine room and
lazarette; those spaces are huge.  In the N57, John Elway couldn't throw a
football from one end to the other but that's where all the belowdecks room
in the boat disappeared to.  There is also tankage to consider, fuel takes
up space as does water and waste.  Finally, the N47 is much larger feeling
inside than the N50.  Nordhavn decided to go with more freeboard and came
out of the exercise with more interior volume and a stronger sense of
spaciousness than on the N50.  Frankly, to me the N47 "feels" more spacious
below decks than the forward area of the N57.  Not true in terms of cubic
feet but we perceive spaciousness without a tape measure.  The N62 never
approaches the sense of volume below decks as the 47, regardless of the fact
that it is vastly larger in volume and displacement.

I've said this before:  Anything built by man has flaws and suffers problems
and no boat can do it all.  Bob Beebe describes numerous repairs at sea and
compromises he made in the name of seakeeping and range and usage on the
French canal system in his designing Passagemaker.  I've spoken with a
couple Cape Horn owners/brokers and there are things they wish were done
differently.  The Castlemans had a hand in the design and completion of
their Park Isle 57, Fine Romance and there are still things they would
change.  The best equipment you can buy still breaks or requires frequent
maintenance (especially active stabilizer systems) or simply can't be
maintained in some parts of the world.  Real passagemaking is a tough
business and a money pit, more so than the advertising and print articles
lead you to believe.  Russ and Donna Sherwin (Has ANYBODY heard from them in
the last 5 or 6 months?) were enraptured with their N46, Four Seasons and
they perform plenty of work on the boat.  Some acknowledged experts think
they do some things poorly from a conceptual standpoint but don't find fault
with the way they execute their design.  They are also out there pushing
some of the auxiliary equipment vendors to improve their product to the
point that it lives a longer life in the Passagemaking environment.

I didn't jump into the GH37 thread because that was so very subjective and
most of us haven't seen the manufacturers product.  Certainly I don't know
squat about them.  We're ultimately going to spend some serious coin on a
Nordy ourselves so I've made it my business to learn everything possible
about the product and the people behind it and think the Emperor is richly
robed for the passagemaking owner.  I'm not a Nordhavn apologist by any
means.  I just don't think that you can do better for just under a million
dollars if you're actually going to take on blue water, especially with the
demise of Willard production.  If you're not going offshore, I'd recommend
you did some serious soul searching before plunking your money down to see
if you're buying the brand for emotional rather than "practical" reasons.

As if there was anything the least bit practical about what we do...

Best Regards to All,

Frank & Claudette Weismantel
Elverta, CA
Boatless for a little while longer

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Frank & Claudette,

Extremely well-put, quite valid points.  I too have found several Nordhavn
designs surprisingly "small" inside, due to the presence of numerous rooms
and bulkheads that appear intended to give everyone everything they want.  I
certainly wouldn't question Nordhavn's approach, they're very successful.
But surely they have cashed in on the current craze for "instant
passagemaking" vessels, even if selling a few to buyers who had no
intentions of bluewater cruising.  Certainly not PAE's fault, nor its
designers and builders.

As you conclude your post with "As if there was anything the least bit
practical about what we do...", I tend to agree that we select boats and
equipment often for less than "practical" reasons.  Among those are the
image that a certain design, designer, model, layout or image that a
particular model or builder has.

My wife and I entered the "trawler" market about two years ago, pretty well
convinced that we wanted a DeFever 49' RPH, probably based more on her
reputation for seakeeping than anything else.  I was intimately familiar
with the Ford-Lehman 120 HP engines most of her breed feature and knew them
to be reliable and a good fit for economical cruising.  There is a lot to
like in the 49' RPH, certainly the huge pilothouse with its own bunk and
settee is impressive.  Had the first few RPH's we seriously considered not
been flawed by engine problems or title issues, we very likely would have
bought one.

But when engine surveys and title searches held up our quest, we realized
that there was something about the 1980-1984 vintage 49' RPH's (that fit our
budget) we examined that weren't all that reassuring.  So deeply entrenched
was our mindset in support of the 49' DeFever that we failed to recognize
that our esthetic senses were rebelling against the dark teak interiors and
the narrow, steep staircase down to adjoining guest and owner staterooms.
Given the extra time to consider our selection, when engine problems and
title issues made the first few deals fall through, we eventually realized
that there were serious concerns we had about the design.

For a variety of reasons, including more affordability, larger engines, more
practical layout, newer design, less "fixer upper" status, etc., we opted
for a 10 year newer cockpit motoryacht that while fitted throughout in teak,
is a much lighter shade we find more attractive and lacks the narrow
circular staircase descending into a cave-like atmosphere we came to expect
in RPHs.

Bottom-line, we need to soul-search enough to find out what we truly want to
accomplish with our boats, whether its bluewater passagemaking, coastal
cruising, inland harbor-hopping or whatever and then set out looking for the
designs that service that functionality best, given your budget and other
constraints.  Nordhavn builds a great boat, and can be justifiably proud of
their hard-earned reputation for integrity in the design and construction of
genuine bluewater passagemakers.  Combined with impressive marketing they
have succeeded in convincing some, as you detailed, to buy their boats even
though they had little use for them or the cruising style they espouse.

Of course if I should win the Lotto, I might have to rethink this position,
on the way to Dana Point!

Bob Peterson

-----Original Message-----
From: Service@CFX Marine.Com
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 12:55 AM
To: Trawler-World-List; Arild Jensen
Subject: TWL: RE: RE: Re: Nordhavn

Hello All,

I chatted with a couple who lived on their N62 at the Coral Marina in
Ensenada.  They were very happy with it but felt it was too "cut up", to use
their words.  The boat has a lot of cabins and decks.  It also has extremely
long legs, a very large engine room and storage for a ton of provisions and
spares.  It is a pure passagemaker that offers adequate room to live aboard.
There are many boats that offer lots more living room.  They have neither
the legs nor the storage space to compete with the Nordy when she's in her
element.

I'm biased; Claudette and I are working as hard and long as we can in order
to acquire a passage capable vessel and get the hell out of dodge.  Still,
they are extremely narrow purpose boats, intended to safely transport you
long distances over blue water.  Once there, working in thin water where
their extreme range and open water seakeeping systems and capabilities
aren't useful, all the areas where the designers refused to compromise their
basic purpose show up as "rolls like a bowling ball" or paravanes too deep
for bay operation, or too darn slow or....whatever.  That's why some owners
can't wait to sell them.  They don't know what they got themselves into.

Well said Arild, but regardless of whether they do or not, we still have
this list and its archives to help us make our decisions.

FrankB
Kimmell, IN

-----Original Message-----
From: Arild Jensen [mailto:elnav@uniserve.com]

Companies would be well advised to take heed when a thread  brings out
concerns
and  critiques related to either the marketing approach or the actual
product
quality.

Hi Alan,

We looked seriously at a KK48 right before our business failed in early
2002.  At that time the boat was not really as well equipped as the KK48
being manufactured today.  They had quite poor doors and glass and didnt
give the same sense of security as the Nordhavn.  Another post alluded to
the smaller glass areas on the Nordhavns.  That is true, the Krogens let in
much more light.  However, the glass area is a dual edged sword, great at
the dock and not good when there is green water all around, even with storm
plates.

We thought the KK48 we looked at was poorly equipped electrically and the
installation of the various subsystems wasnt as rugged as the Nordhavns.
This is a couple years ago and things might have changed.  A wing engine
installation would have been problematic.  The boat had a very nice
CAT3206NA installation and hydraulics for the stabilizers, winch and bow
thruster (I think, foggy on this point).

The boat has the best layout weve seen, assuming you are amenable to the
forepeak cabin.  If you prefer a midship master, the N47 is our favorite.
There is a school of thought that says the time you spend at sea is
inadequate to merit surrendering the amount of air and light you receive
from a forward master stateroom.  The other school of thought sez that a
midship berth is the best place to try and sleep in a rocking seaway.
Anyway, thats why Baskin Robins doesnt only sell vanilla.  I know
Claudette loves the Krogen 48 above all other boats weve seen.  They
integrate the flybridge into the vessel profile much better than Nordhavn
does on the 40, 46 and 47.  Its an extremely handsome boat and if looks
counted for something at sea shed be the queen of the passagemakers.
Woodworking craftsmanship is exemplary, as well.

Krogen construction is first rate but different in that they use a cored
hull above the waterline.  The boat is lighter, foot for foot, and that
contributes to some nice performance numbers.  Tankage is not really
comparable, Nordhavn carries more fuel in a niche where every gallon counts.

Sohere is a question:  Would you take off for the South Pacific in the
KK48?  I wouldnt in the one we crawled through in 2001.  Id take off in
almost any N46 and probably in almost any N47, assuming adequate equipment
and proper shakedown for the trip.  The basic boat should be as good or
better than any comparable vessel..

Another question:  Would you take off for AK, MX or the complete Caribbean
or even the Bermuda, Azores, Med route?  Probably, assuming a decent weather
window and lots of planning and dry runs up and down the coast to completely
shake her down.

I know of a few Nordhavns, including a N50 that I think has a link on the
Trawlerworld home port (Maybe Nordhavn Voyages on the company website) that
did the great loop and the dry stack didnt stop them.  They did modify the
stack but that was all it took to manage the trip.  Beebe modified his stack
for the French canals.
Best Regards,

Frank & Claudette Weismantel
Elverta, CA
Boatless for a little while longer

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan [mailto:wagner.florida@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 9:12 AM
To: trawler-world-list@lists.samurai.com; elnav@uniserve.com;
service@cfxmarine.com
Subject: Re: TWL: RE: RE: Re: Nordhavn
<SNIP>

A subjective review of window size does not cut it.  There are numbers (see
below) which tell you what the boat is designed for. Interestingly, the
Nordhavn web site does a good job of explaining how the some of numbers work
http://www.nordhavn.com/design/full/full.htm, but I could not find their
specific numbers for each boat (did I miss them?). Krogen does not explain
them, but clearly publishes them, as below. Krogen does republish a
comparison of the KK48 vs the N50, but without hydrostatic numbers.
http://www.kadeykrogen.com/comparison.htm

Cruising Under Power, updated from Beebe's original by the Nordhavn guys, is
a great source to get a handle on these numbers.

Anybody got the Norhavn numbers for comparable boats?

The only number I could find, was N's mention of the D/L ratio of the N46 as
383. Compare that to the KK48 at 269. Quite a difference...

KROGEN 58
Hydrostatic Data:
Displacement/Length Ratio (D/L) 303
Above/Below Water Area Ratio (A/B) 2.6
single screw option 2.4
Prismatic Coefficient (PC) .64
Pounds-Per-Inch Immersion 3,425 lbs.
Moment-to-Trim One Inch 10,070 ft. lbs.
Longitudinal Center of Buoyancy (LCB) 52.5% (Aft)
single screw option 53.2% (Aft)
Longitudinal Center of Floatation (LCF) 55.9% (Aft)

KROGEN 48
Hydrostatic Data:
Displacement/Length Ratio (D/L) 269
Above/Below Water Area Ratio (A/B) 2.6
Prismatic Coefficient (PC) .60
Pounds-Per-Inch Immersion 2,600 lbs.
Moment-to-Trim One Inch 6,390 ft. lbs.
Longitudinal Center of Buoyancy (LCB) 51.8% (Aft)
Longitudinal Center of Floatation (LCF) 55.8% (Aft)

Bob

Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
M/V MARY KATHRYN
Hatteras 58 LRC
Marathon in the Florida Keys