Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Measurements
lenny@Codematic.com said:
As i stated earlier, i'm using a CMMR-60p, which seems to just be a small
DSP.
The data sheet at SparkFun shows that it's just an analog receiver with a
peak detector and AGC.
Does anybody have any ideas on how much better you could do with an ADC and
DSP?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
All,
I think you may be right. Although i did read somewhere that this design was
originally just a technical example of an ATMEL 8-bit DSP ... not sure
though.
-Lenny
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net wrote:
lenny@Codematic.com said:
As i stated earlier, i'm using a CMMR-60p, which seems to just be a small
DSP.
The data sheet at SparkFun shows that it's just an analog receiver with a
peak detector and AGC.
Does anybody have any ideas on how much better you could do with an ADC and
DSP?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Interesting thread and welcome to time-nuts.
Well I suppose since LORAN C has been shut down and I have to say not having
a lot of luck with LORAN from Europe I have dusted off the ole WWVB
receivers. Actually they have been a live a long time. Just spoiled by LORAN
and GPS..
My actual interest is a Tracor 599 and I do have 2 X HP 117s and a loop
antenna with preamp about 140' from the house.
A couple of things I am thinking about. Considering many on time-nuts have
very accurate rubidium or better references or GPS trained Oscillators I was
going to look at the propagation changes from a semi stable reference
perspective since the local references are quite stable over time.
Measuring over time would indeed give you an idea about the strange and
wacky 60 KHZ propagation beyond diurnal shift.
Ultimately could better information be obtained over significant time so
that you might have an alternate to GPS. There are articles that were
published in the 60s by HP and others that describe what might be expected.
I am just thinking we have a lot of additional technology, methods and tools
that they did not have. Like laptops that can remember 100s of days worth of
data and process the heck out of it. Not that you need that much.
So I have to troubleshoot an oddity in the 599. John, its loosing lock. Is
it broken, is it propagation.... Tough to say. After all its 70s vintage
could be cranky caps or even handfuls of transistors.By the way I did build
a 60 KHZ xmitter and by golly it does stay locked very nicely. That still
doesn't mean somethings not broken.
Also I need to build a 60 KC breakout/buffer box so that all three rcvrs can
operate at the same time and their outputs can be scaled to the recorder.
Have a very fine box just need to do it.
Lenny I am south of Boston. Think Johns from around here also.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Lenny Story lenny@codematic.com wrote:
All,
I think you may be right. Although i did read somewhere that this design
was
originally just a technical example of an ATMEL 8-bit DSP ... not sure
though.
-Lenny
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net
wrote:
small
DSP.
The data sheet at SparkFun shows that it's just an analog receiver with a
peak detector and AGC.
Does anybody have any ideas on how much better you could do with an ADC
and
DSP?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Paul,
I did that years ago in a qualitative way.
I used a local reference of an HP 105B and the 117A w/ HP loop. I synced a
Tek 7854 to the local standard and watched and averaged the recovered 60
KHz. I no longer remember the results well, but sometimes the "seeing" was
<1uS P-P and on other days it was at least 10s of uS to hundreds of uS.
This may be hard for some to believe, but the seeing seemed to depend on
weather. A big front coming east would make the "seeing" much worse. This
was just a casual observation. I never spent much time studying it. If I
saw the seeing was horid, I just left the stuff running and went away.
Best,
-John
==================
Interesting thread and welcome to time-nuts.
Well I suppose since LORAN C has been shut down and I have to say not
having
a lot of luck with LORAN from Europe I have dusted off the ole WWVB
receivers. Actually they have been a live a long time. Just spoiled by
LORAN
and GPS..
My actual interest is a Tracor 599 and I do have 2 X HP 117s and a loop
antenna with preamp about 140' from the house.
A couple of things I am thinking about. Considering many on time-nuts have
very accurate rubidium or better references or GPS trained Oscillators I
was
going to look at the propagation changes from a semi stable reference
perspective since the local references are quite stable over time.
Measuring over time would indeed give you an idea about the strange and
wacky 60 KHZ propagation beyond diurnal shift.
Ultimately could better information be obtained over significant time so
that you might have an alternate to GPS. There are articles that were
published in the 60s by HP and others that describe what might be
expected.
I am just thinking we have a lot of additional technology, methods and
tools
that they did not have. Like laptops that can remember 100s of days worth
of
data and process the heck out of it. Not that you need that much.
So I have to troubleshoot an oddity in the 599. John, its loosing lock. Is
it broken, is it propagation.... Tough to say. After all its 70s vintage
could be cranky caps or even handfuls of transistors.By the way I did
build
a 60 KHZ xmitter and by golly it does stay locked very nicely. That still
doesn't mean somethings not broken.
Also I need to build a 60 KC breakout/buffer box so that all three rcvrs
can
operate at the same time and their outputs can be scaled to the recorder.
Have a very fine box just need to do it.
Lenny I am south of Boston. Think Johns from around here also.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Lenny Story lenny@codematic.com wrote:
All,
I think you may be right. Although i did read somewhere that this design
was
originally just a technical example of an ATMEL 8-bit DSP ... not sure
though.
-Lenny
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net
wrote:
small
DSP.
The data sheet at SparkFun shows that it's just an analog receiver
with a
peak detector and AGC.
Does anybody have any ideas on how much better you could do with an
ADC
and
DSP?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Actually from what I have seen John it is indeed pretty large and does jump
for many reasons. The sun maybe wx. But when you think about the local
oscillator and that is pretty stable and not jumping. Then over time the
phase of wwvb should come back to a predetermined position or lots of
measured points should hang around a particular time. How fine grain that
might be is hard to say. The other thing is the 90 degree phase shift at 15
after the hour as I recall that has to be accounted for. But again
predictable and the results of whats measured can be stored for a long time.
Anyhow this is Lenny's thread do not want to take it over.
Regards
Paul
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:53 PM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:
Paul,
I did that years ago in a qualitative way.
I used a local reference of an HP 105B and the 117A w/ HP loop. I synced a
Tek 7854 to the local standard and watched and averaged the recovered 60
KHz. I no longer remember the results well, but sometimes the "seeing" was
<1uS P-P and on other days it was at least 10s of uS to hundreds of uS.
This may be hard for some to believe, but the seeing seemed to depend on
weather. A big front coming east would make the "seeing" much worse. This
was just a casual observation. I never spent much time studying it. If I
saw the seeing was horid, I just left the stuff running and went away.
Best,
-John
==================
Interesting thread and welcome to time-nuts.
Well I suppose since LORAN C has been shut down and I have to say not
having
a lot of luck with LORAN from Europe I have dusted off the ole WWVB
receivers. Actually they have been a live a long time. Just spoiled by
LORAN
and GPS..
My actual interest is a Tracor 599 and I do have 2 X HP 117s and a loop
antenna with preamp about 140' from the house.
A couple of things I am thinking about. Considering many on time-nuts
have
very accurate rubidium or better references or GPS trained Oscillators I
was
going to look at the propagation changes from a semi stable reference
perspective since the local references are quite stable over time.
Measuring over time would indeed give you an idea about the strange and
wacky 60 KHZ propagation beyond diurnal shift.
Ultimately could better information be obtained over significant time so
that you might have an alternate to GPS. There are articles that were
published in the 60s by HP and others that describe what might be
expected.
I am just thinking we have a lot of additional technology, methods and
tools
that they did not have. Like laptops that can remember 100s of days worth
of
data and process the heck out of it. Not that you need that much.
So I have to troubleshoot an oddity in the 599. John, its loosing lock.
Is
it broken, is it propagation.... Tough to say. After all its 70s vintage
could be cranky caps or even handfuls of transistors.By the way I did
build
a 60 KHZ xmitter and by golly it does stay locked very nicely. That still
doesn't mean somethings not broken.
Also I need to build a 60 KC breakout/buffer box so that all three rcvrs
can
operate at the same time and their outputs can be scaled to the recorder.
Have a very fine box just need to do it.
Lenny I am south of Boston. Think Johns from around here also.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Lenny Story lenny@codematic.com
wrote:
All,
I think you may be right. Although i did read somewhere that this design
was
originally just a technical example of an ATMEL 8-bit DSP ... not sure
though.
-Lenny
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net
wrote:
small
DSP.
The data sheet at SparkFun shows that it's just an analog receiver
with a
peak detector and AGC.
Does anybody have any ideas on how much better you could do with an
ADC
and
DSP?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
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All,
Actually i don't mind all the chatter, gives me more information regarding
all of the topic really.
Been interested in time, on a social level since military school, where
"clock drift" was my #1 excuse for being late to class. :)
73
-Lenny Story
N1YEZ
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 10:36 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Actually from what I have seen John it is indeed pretty large and does jump
for many reasons. The sun maybe wx. But when you think about the local
oscillator and that is pretty stable and not jumping. Then over time the
phase of wwvb should come back to a predetermined position or lots of
measured points should hang around a particular time. How fine grain that
might be is hard to say. The other thing is the 90 degree phase shift at 15
after the hour as I recall that has to be accounted for. But again
predictable and the results of whats measured can be stored for a long
time.
Anyhow this is Lenny's thread do not want to take it over.
Regards
Paul
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:53 PM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:
Paul,
I did that years ago in a qualitative way.
I used a local reference of an HP 105B and the 117A w/ HP loop. I synced
a
Tek 7854 to the local standard and watched and averaged the recovered 60
KHz. I no longer remember the results well, but sometimes the "seeing"
was
<1uS P-P and on other days it was at least 10s of uS to hundreds of uS.
This may be hard for some to believe, but the seeing seemed to depend on
weather. A big front coming east would make the "seeing" much worse. This
was just a casual observation. I never spent much time studying it. If I
saw the seeing was horid, I just left the stuff running and went away.
Best,
-John
==================
Interesting thread and welcome to time-nuts.
Well I suppose since LORAN C has been shut down and I have to say not
having
a lot of luck with LORAN from Europe I have dusted off the ole WWVB
receivers. Actually they have been a live a long time. Just spoiled by
LORAN
and GPS..
My actual interest is a Tracor 599 and I do have 2 X HP 117s and a loop
antenna with preamp about 140' from the house.
A couple of things I am thinking about. Considering many on time-nuts
have
very accurate rubidium or better references or GPS trained Oscillators
I
was
going to look at the propagation changes from a semi stable reference
perspective since the local references are quite stable over time.
Measuring over time would indeed give you an idea about the strange and
wacky 60 KHZ propagation beyond diurnal shift.
Ultimately could better information be obtained over significant time
so
that you might have an alternate to GPS. There are articles that were
published in the 60s by HP and others that describe what might be
expected.
I am just thinking we have a lot of additional technology, methods and
tools
that they did not have. Like laptops that can remember 100s of days
worth
of
data and process the heck out of it. Not that you need that much.
So I have to troubleshoot an oddity in the 599. John, its loosing lock.
Is
it broken, is it propagation.... Tough to say. After all its 70s
vintage
could be cranky caps or even handfuls of transistors.By the way I did
build
a 60 KHZ xmitter and by golly it does stay locked very nicely. That
still
doesn't mean somethings not broken.
Also I need to build a 60 KC breakout/buffer box so that all three
rcvrs
can
operate at the same time and their outputs can be scaled to the
recorder.
Have a very fine box just need to do it.
Lenny I am south of Boston. Think Johns from around here also.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Lenny Story lenny@codematic.com
wrote:
All,
I think you may be right. Although i did read somewhere that this
design
was
originally just a technical example of an ATMEL 8-bit DSP ... not sure
though.
-Lenny
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net
wrote:
a
small
DSP.
The data sheet at SparkFun shows that it's just an analog receiver
with a
peak detector and AGC.
Does anybody have any ideas on how much better you could do with an
ADC
and
DSP?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
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From what I remember of the ancient days of watching
WWV against our in house reference, we had a circular
paper plotter (1 revolution per 24 hours) set up and
could observe the daily drift in and out. From what
I remember the story was that it was an observation
of the rise and fall of the E layer from insolation.
Along with the time delay change caused by the changing
distance up to and down from the displaced E layer,
the accompanying frequency drift was attributed to
Doppler effect.
Greg
On 3/26/2011 8:36 PM, paul swed wrote:
Actually from what I have seen John it is indeed pretty large and does jump
for many reasons. The sun maybe wx. But when you think about the local
oscillator and that is pretty stable and not jumping. Then over time the
phase of wwvb should come back to a predetermined position or lots of
measured points should hang around a particular time. How fine grain that
might be is hard to say. The other thing is the 90 degree phase shift at 15
after the hour as I recall that has to be accounted for. But again
predictable and the results of whats measured can be stored for a long time.
Anyhow this is Lenny's thread do not want to take it over.
Regards
Paul
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:53 PM, J. Forsterjfor@quik.com wrote:
Paul,
I did that years ago in a qualitative way.
I used a local reference of an HP 105B and the 117A w/ HP loop. I synced a
Tek 7854 to the local standard and watched and averaged the recovered 60
KHz. I no longer remember the results well, but sometimes the "seeing" was
<1uS P-P and on other days it was at least 10s of uS to hundreds of uS.
This may be hard for some to believe, but the seeing seemed to depend on
weather. A big front coming east would make the "seeing" much worse. This
was just a casual observation. I never spent much time studying it. If I
saw the seeing was horid, I just left the stuff running and went away.
Best,
-John
==================
Interesting thread and welcome to time-nuts.
Well I suppose since LORAN C has been shut down and I have to say not
having
a lot of luck with LORAN from Europe I have dusted off the ole WWVB
receivers. Actually they have been a live a long time. Just spoiled by
LORAN
and GPS..
My actual interest is a Tracor 599 and I do have 2 X HP 117s and a loop
antenna with preamp about 140' from the house.
A couple of things I am thinking about. Considering many on time-nuts
have
very accurate rubidium or better references or GPS trained Oscillators I
was
going to look at the propagation changes from a semi stable reference
perspective since the local references are quite stable over time.
Measuring over time would indeed give you an idea about the strange and
wacky 60 KHZ propagation beyond diurnal shift.
Ultimately could better information be obtained over significant time so
that you might have an alternate to GPS. There are articles that were
published in the 60s by HP and others that describe what might be
expected.
I am just thinking we have a lot of additional technology, methods and
tools
that they did not have. Like laptops that can remember 100s of days worth
of
data and process the heck out of it. Not that you need that much.
So I have to troubleshoot an oddity in the 599. John, its loosing lock.
Is
it broken, is it propagation.... Tough to say. After all its 70s vintage
could be cranky caps or even handfuls of transistors.By the way I did
build
a 60 KHZ xmitter and by golly it does stay locked very nicely. That still
doesn't mean somethings not broken.
Also I need to build a 60 KC breakout/buffer box so that all three rcvrs
can
operate at the same time and their outputs can be scaled to the recorder.
Have a very fine box just need to do it.
Lenny I am south of Boston. Think Johns from around here also.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Lenny Storylenny@codematic.com
wrote:
All,
I think you may be right. Although i did read somewhere that this design
was
originally just a technical example of an ATMEL 8-bit DSP ... not sure
though.
-Lenny
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Hal Murrayhmurray@megapathdsl.net
wrote:
small
DSP.
The data sheet at SparkFun shows that it's just an analog receiver
with a
peak detector and AGC.
Does anybody have any ideas on how much better you could do with an
ADC
and
DSP?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 17:48:12 -0700
Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net wrote:
Does anybody have any ideas on how much better you could do with an ADC and
DSP?
There are many. From simple high-tap filters to sofisticated methods
like maximum likelyhood decoders.
The field is vast and quite well worked on. The book "Digital Transmission
Engineering" by J.B. Anderson provides a good cover of the basic techniques
used today, not only DSP based, but in generall. Although the book would
counts for me as light reading, it is a graduate level text. I.e. you need
some good grasp of signal theorie and some math to understand what's written.
It is nevertheless easy to understand even if you dont get all the math.
Attila Kinali
--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin