Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz clock multiplier
Interesting problem
Re: 10 MHz -> 16 MHz clock multiplier
What is low cost?? Serious question.
john k6iql
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Today's Topics:
- Re: 10 MHz -> 16 MHz clock multiplier (Didier Juges)
- Re: An embedded NTP server (Tom Harris)
- Re: An embedded NTP server (Jim Lux)
- Re: An embedded NTP server (Michael Tharp)
- Re: clock-block any need ? (Magnus Danielson)
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 19:31:52 -0600
From: Didier Juges shalimr9@gmail.com
To: Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com, Discussion of precise time and
frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz -> 16 MHz clock multiplier
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Tom,
This may not be the answer you are looking for, but the simplest way may be
to use a uC that has a PLL for clock generation.
Didier
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:
What's the simplest way to generate 16 MHz from 10 MHz? This will be for
clocking a microcontroller at 16 MHz given 10 MHz (Cs/Rb/GPSDO). Low price
and low parts count is a goal; jitter is not a concern but absolute
long-term phase coherence is a must.
The ICS525 (as in TAPR Clock-Block) is a good candidate but I was
wondering if there's something cheaper, less functional, and maybe not
SSOP. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
/tvb
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 12:34:15 +1100
From: Tom Harris celephicus@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] An embedded NTP server
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+1 for Forth!
+1 for your opinions on PICs & AVRs. We can buy low end NXP ARM Cortex M0
chips (e.g. LPC1113) for less than the PIC18 we were using before, and it
has a real compiler and (unlike the real world) evidence of intelligent
design!
Do you really need an OS? Surely for a box that is only ever going to be an
NTP server you just need a network interface and good maths? I've just seen
a later comment where you mention floating point support, but would 64 bit
integer maths work just as well?
On 3 January 2013 06:25, Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp phk@phk.freebsd.dk
wrote:
I've given up on PIC and Atmel microcontrollers and their antiquated
CPU designs.
My life is too short to fight odd-ball compilers, when I can get a
real 32 bit CPU and a good compiler instead.
That is a valid point if you are building a one-off project. Your
time is worth something. But if you plan to sell a million AA cell
battery chargers using a 32-bit controller is uneconomical. These
will always be a bigger market for 8-bit chips then for 32-bit chips.
For an NTP server I'd go with something that can run an OS and the NTP
reverence implementation. ARM (and others) can do that.
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Tom Harris celephicus@gmail.com
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 18:26:24 -0800
From: Jim Lux jimlux@earthlink.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] An embedded NTP server
Message-ID: 50E4EC50.1030207@earthlink.net
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On 1/2/13 5:34 PM, Tom Harris wrote:
+1 for Forth!
+1 for your opinions on PICs & AVRs. We can buy low end NXP ARM Cortex M0
chips (e.g. LPC1113) for less than the PIC18 we were using before, and it
has a real compiler and (unlike the real world) evidence of intelligent
design!
Do you really need an OS? Surely for a box that is only ever going to be an
NTP server you just need a network interface and good maths? I've just seen
a later comment where you mention floating point support, but would 64 bit
integer maths work just as well?
Well, one might not need a full-up multitasking OS, but I'd sure like to
have a high level interface to the network (say BSD sockets or something
like that). And most OSes (or OS-like infrastructure) also gives you
some handy stuff like timers, threads, queues, etc.
If you are doing something that is TRULY single function, the "one big
loop" scheme can work, particularly if you've got a lot of nice
libraries to do stuff like string handling/parsing/device interaction.
I think the dividing line might be where you are trying to do more than
one thing with different time scales. It would be straightforward to do
something like multiple PID loops with a common sample/update rate (like
a lot of PLC industrial controllers do), but as soon as you start
running things at different rates (check the Ethernet, check the serial
port, update the loop, etc.) having an OS to do the book-keeping is
pretty nice.
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 21:29:59 -0500
From: Michael Tharp gxti@partiallystapled.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] An embedded NTP server
Message-ID: 50E4ED27.6030707@partiallystapled.com
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On 01/02/2013 08:34 PM, Tom Harris wrote:
Do you really need an OS? Surely for a box that is only ever going to be an
NTP server you just need a network interface and good maths? I've just seen
a later comment where you mention floating point support, but would 64 bit
integer maths work just as well?
You certainly do not need an OS. For this project I am using a RTOS
called ChibiOS that provides a threading interface and handles the
tedium of flinging packets as well as timers, serial, etc. but it's not
an OS in the same sense as Linux is and I'm still interacting directly
with the critical peripherals.
Since the PPS measurements are being done in dedicated hardware and the
Ethernet interface is a hard-wired MAC and not USB, it performs quite a
bit better than something with the overhead of a managed OS. Raspberry
Pi and some other Linux-ready boards I've seen also use Ethernet
interfaces built into the USB host, not quite sure why that's more
cost-effective but it's sure to result in much poorer jitter versus a
direct MAC.
I'm using a F1 part which does not have a FPU, so all the math is 64bit
integers. Soft floats are also an option, and for even the fanciest
GPSDO there's not nearly enough number crunching going on to make a FPU
absolutely necessary.
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 04:18:04 +0100
From: Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] clock-block any need ?
Message-ID: 50E4F86C.2090603@rubidium.dyndns.org
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On 02/01/13 02:57, Dennis Ferguson wrote:
On 27 Dec, 2012, at 15:13 , Magnus Danielsonmagnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
wrote:
On GE, a full-length packet is about 12 us, so a single packets head-of-line
blocking can be anything up to that amount, multiple packets... well, it keeps
adding. Knowing how switches works doesn't really help as packets arrive in a
myriad of rates, they interact and cross-modulate and create strange patterns
and dance in interesting ways that is ever changing in unpredictable fashion.
I wanted to address this bit because it seems like most
people base their expectations for NTP on this complexity,
as does the argument being made above, but the holiday
intervened. While I suspect many people are thoroughly
bored of this topic by now I can't resist completing the
thought.
Be advised that it was the short description of a much lengthier discussion.
Yes, the delay of a sample packet through an output queue
will be proportional to the number of untransmitted bits in
the queue ahead of it, yes, the magnitude of that delay can
be very large and largely variable and, even, yes, the
statistics governing that delay may often be unpredictable and
non-gaussian, exhibiting dangerously heavy tails. The thing is,
though, that this doesn't necessarily have to matter so much. A
better approach might avoid relying on the things you can't know.
Hard to avoid fundamental properties of transmission, at least when they
have been made fundamental properties.
Recall that the queue length is quantized in steps, and that various
"padding" (preamble-sequence, header, trailer, postamble-sequence)
occurs. 8-bit quantization is safe to assume as minimum step for GE, due
to its 8B10B encoding format on the optical channel. For optical GE,
event resolution is therefore 8 ns.
To see how, consider a different question: what is the
probability that any two samples sent through that queue
will experience precisely the same delay (i.e. find precisely
the same number of bits queued in front of it when it
gets there)? I think it is fairly conservative to predict
that the probability that two samples will arrive at a non-empty
output queue with exactly the same number of bits in front of
them will be fairly small; the number of bits in the queue will
be continuously changing, so the delay through a non-empty queue
should have a near-continuous (and unpredictable) probability
distribution, as you point out, and if the sampling is uncorrelated
with the competing traffic it is unlikely that any pair of
samples will find exactly the same point on that distribution.
Yes and no. It is hard to do with a low asking rate, but some properties
can improve with a high asking rate.
The exception to this, of course, is a queue length of
precisely 0 bits (which is precisely why the behaviour
of a switch with no competing traffic is interesting). The
vast majority of queues in the vast majority of network
devices in real networks are no where near continuously
occupied for long periods. The time-averaged fractional load
on the circuit a queue is feeding is also the probability of
finding the queue not-empty. If the average load on the
output circuit is less than 100% then multiple samples are
probably going to find that queue precisely empty; if the
average load on the output circuit is 50% (and that would be
an unusually high number in a LAN, though maybe less
unusual in other contexts) then 50% of the samples that pass
through that queue are going to find it empty. Since samples
that found the queue empty will have experienced pretty much
identical delays, the "results" (for some value of "result")
from those samples will cluster closely together. The
results from samples which experienced a delay will
differ from that cluster but, as discussed above, will also
differ from each other and generally won't form a cluster
somewhere else. The cluster marks the good spot independent
of the precise (and precisely unknowable) nature of the statistics
governing the distribution of samples outside the cluster. If
we can find the cluster we have a result which does not depend
on understanding the precise behaviour of samples outside the
cluster.
Whenever you want to do this, you need to measure the network more
furiously, those the asking rate goes up.
Given this it is also worth while to consider "jitter", which
intuition based on a normal distribution assumption might suggest
should be predictive of the quality of the result derived from a
collection of samples. In the situation above, however, the
dominant contributors to "jitter", however measured, are going
to be the samples outside the cluster since they are the ones
that are "jittering" (it is that property we are relying on to
define the cluster). If jitter mostly measures information
about the samples the estimate doesn't rely on then it tells you
little about the samples the estimate does rely on, and hence
can provide no prediction about the quality of an estimate
derived from those samples alone. In fact, in a true perversion
of normal intuition, high jitter and heavy-tailed probability
distributions might even make it easier to get a good result
by making it easier to identify the cluster. Saying "I see
a lot of jitter" doesn't necessarily tell you anything about
what is possible.
I think one has to realize that what queues and scheduling does to
packet delays, defies the normal "jitter" statistics quite a bit.
The delay varies, and the properties of delay varies. It is an ever
shifting property. There is however a few know properties of this
"jitter". For one thing, it always increases the delay (assuming that we
do not change path in the network).
While the argument gets a lot more complex in a hurry, and
too much to attempt here (the above is too much already), I
believe this general approach can scale to a whole large network
of devices with queues (though even the single-switch case has real
life relevance too). That is, I think it is possible to find a
sample "result" for which there is a strong tendency for "good"
samples to cluster together while "bad" samples are unlikely to do
so, with the quality of the result depending on the population and
nature of variability of the cluster but hardly at all on the
outliers, and with the lack of a measurable cluster telling you
when you might be better off relying on your local clock rather
than the network. The approach relies on the things we do know
about networks and networking equipment while avoiding reliance on
things we can't know: it mostly avoids making gaussian statistical
assumptions about distributions that may not be gaussian. The field
of robust statistics provides tools addressing this which might
be of use.
It just isn't a good set of tools. This is why lots of effort has been
put into research. A few search terms for you: min-TDEV and MAFE
min-TDEV is one of a number of algorithms in which they have applied a
block-min pre-filter prior to the TDEV measure. As the number of samples
in the block measure increases, the TDEV measures lowers.
There is a cluster approach and percentile approaches also being looked
at, but the common trend here is that the asking rate becomes higher,
much higher.
I guess it is worth completing this by mentioning what it
says about ntpd. First, ntpd knows all of the above, probably
much, much better than I do, though it might not put it in
quite the same terms.
Yes and no. NTPD implements impressive filterings. However, it sends far
to little packets to probe the network delays in order for the filters
to eat down enough through the jitter. PTP allows for higher asking
rates, and it is one the things which it has going for it compared to NTP.
If you make the assumption that the
stochastic delays experienced by samples are evenly distributed
between the outbound and inbound paths (this is not a good match
for the real world, by the way, but there are constraints...) then
round trip delay becomes a stand-in measure of "cluster", and ntpd
does what it can with this.
The wedge dispersion plots is nice. The top and bottom part of the wedge
holds the min samples of one-way delay in either in-bound or out-bound
direction. It's not a bad solution, but it needs more samples to chew on.
The fundamental constraint that limits
what ntpd can do, in a couple of ways, is the fact that the final
stage of its filter is a PLL.
That is the traditional view, yes.
The integrator in a PLL assumes
that the errors in the samples it is being fed are zero-mean and
normally distributed, and will fail to arrive at a correct answer if
this is not the case, so if you want to filter samples for which
this is unlikely to be the case you need to do it before they get
to the PLL. The problem with doing this well, however, is that a
PLL is also destabilised by adding delays to its feedback path,
causing errors of a different nature, so anything done before the
PLL is severely limited in the amount of time it can spend doing
that, and hence the number of samples it can look at to do that.
Doing better probably requires replacing the PLL; the "replace
it with what?" question is truly interesting.
The integrator does not expect zero-mean samples. It's infinite gain at
DC drives the detector to produce zero-mean samples. If a set of samples
not being average zero comes in, the DC property of those steers the
integrator state such that the frequency shifts and that the phase ramp
chases in the property and the phase detector start producing zero-mean
samples again. This is the properties of the PI-style PLL being used.
It's how it should be.
To your point, the unstable delay as being measured by NTP causes the
phase to wobble around. Long term frequency is actually safe, the length
of the time-stamps ensure that. Phase and frequency stability however is
affected. It's not the PI-loop that is the culprit, but instability of
the measure. A Kalman filter for timing turns out to be quite near a
self-tuned PI-loop BTW. If you want to combat this noise, you need to do
it with some model of it and means to create a quieter product. Some of
that is in the public, some of it isn't.
As for delay in the feedback path, this has been systematically
investigated and there is a lovely paper that shows that to maintain the
same damping, the bandwidth needs to go down as delays goes up. If you
have low enough bandwidth, you need to trim your damping coefficient
instead. It's not a flaw in the traditional PI PLL, it's just that the
property was not taken into account, and hence applying the wrong model
and stability analysis to the situation. Doing the homework and you get
back to safe ground.
I suspect I've gone well off topic for this list, however, and for
that I apologize. I just wanted to make sure it was understood that
there is an argument for the view that we do not yet know of any
fundamental limits on the precision that NTP, or a network time
protocol like NTP, might achieve, so any effort to build NTP servers
and clients which can make their measurements more precisely is not
a waste of time. It instead is what is required to make progress
in understanding how to do this better.
I think you have misunderstood my intentions here. NTP isn't a bad
build, it's quite impressive. There is a number of things to improve on
it. PTP has taken a lead in some fields, but lagging behind NTP in
others. NTP is not just operating in touch with what I believe is the
state of art in packet delay measurements for timing. There are several
things that would needed to be changed in NTP for it to compete well,
and some of them is in what the standard says, others lies in how the
standard is being used or the system is being used. You can do a lot
more within the realm of NTP, but some of the design decisions
previously made would have to be scrapped.
Cheers,
Magnus
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End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 102, Issue 10
What is low cost?? Serious question.
The OP (tvb) said "maybe not SSOP" so he's not interested in typical high
volume production techniques. I assume he's interested home brew stuff using
low cost parts and free labor.
I'd put the knee of the curve at $10. $1 would be great. $100 is too much.
You can get different answers if you pick $3 or $30 rather than my $10, but I
think that's the right ballpark.
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