Hi, A while ago I claimed that my company is to bring out the lowest phase noise 10 MHz oscillator. This was partly done with tongue in cheek to see what response I got. A lot of people came back with alternative oscillators with even lower phase noise. But I have to say I still haven't seem a better unit that is actually available. Someone mentioned Oscilloquartz BVA oscillator. Although this is great at 1 Hz, it only makes -145 dBc at 10 kHz which is very poor. Also a $10k price and one year delivery period isn't what I call a readily available unit (not that I am in production yet, either). Other units that people mentioned don't seem to be made anymore, or just not available. So it seems Wenzel is still king at the moment, but they can also take 20 weeks to deliver. Anyway, I've just found someone from Russia who knocks everyone out of the air. They claim -161 dBc/Hz at 1 Hz with a -183 dBc/Hz floor noise. Now that's what I call low noise. Anyone know any more about this? I'm trying to make contact with the guy but no success yet. Best Regards Martyn This Email is from: Martyn Smith Precision Test Systems LTD Tel: +44 (0) 1245 329608 Email: martyn@ptsyst.com Web: www.ptsyst.com NOTICE - This message contains legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, distribute, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify Precision Test Systems LTD. This communication represents the originator's personal views and opinions, which do not necessarily reflect those of Precision Test Systems Ltd. from whom it emanates. Further, Precision Test Systems Ltd. will not be held responsible for its contents and/or attachments, if the communication contravenes the rules of Precision Test Systems Ltd's email policy. ----- Original Message ----- From: <time-nuts-request@febo.com> To: <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 12:15 AM Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 20 > Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to > time-nuts@febo.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > time-nuts-request@febo.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > time-nuts-owner@febo.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. HP105A/B technical documentation? (Christoffer Bruman) > 2. Wavecrest DTS-2070C in the house (Magnus Danielson) > 3. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Didier Juges) > 4. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Didier Juges) > 5. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? > (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) > 6. Re: Cesium Oscialltors and Low Phase Noise Frequency Standard > (Enrico Rubiola) > 7. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Magnus Danielson) > 8. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Brian Styles) > 9. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Enrico Rubiola) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:12:49 +0100 > From: Christoffer Bruman <bruman@telia.com> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP105A/B technical documentation? > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Message-ID: <47599B31.7020703@telia.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Dear List, > > I am searching for a service manual (or at least a complete schematic) > of HP:s 105A (or B) frequency standard, preferably the later version > with the 10811x inside. There seems to be plenty of information > downloadable on the 10811x itself, but I am interested in the details on > how HP solved things like power supply, grounding, internal EFC, > external DC inlet, etc in these units. > > If anyone has any useful links to the manual or a schematic, or > shareable files, I would be very thankful. > > Best regards, > > Christoffer :) > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:43:36 +0100 (CET) > From: Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> > Subject: [time-nuts] Wavecrest DTS-2070C in the house > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Message-ID: <20071207.214336.-601741223.cfmd@bredband.net> > Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi fellow time-nuts! > > I am just happy to let you know that I am now proud owner of a Wavecrest > DTS-2070C. I also have a SIA-3000P from before, which is nice for jitter > but > not as versatile as you would wish at all times. I think the DTS will be a > nice > complement. > > I was not suspect it to be that large thought, but ah well, life is full > of > supprises. > > It fired up and I have it doing some counting going down, but I think it > is > time to read the manual to figure some things out. Otherwise it seems > fairly > easy to operate. > > The LCD is BIG, so there is no chance missing the numbers even from some > distance. > > Hmm. Time to make some shootout here... :) > > Cheers, > Magnus > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:08:39 -0600 > From: "Didier Juges" <didier@cox.net> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? > To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > <time-nuts@febo.com> > Message-ID: <06db01c83926$1b2a0be0$6501a8c0@didierhp> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > That would be pretty close, for once (referring to google translations :-) > > Here is the translation from Oscilloquartz themselves: > > "French expression meaning "Enclosure with Improved Ageing". The OSA BVA > crystal oscillators employ special techniques to achieve stability > performance, unmatched by any other crystal device, i.e. typically 1 x > 10-11/day." > > Didier KO4BB > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris >> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:37 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> >> A googlized translation is: >> >> Improved Housing for Aging >> >> -Chuck Harris >> >> John Franke wrote: >> > Try: >> > >> > Bo?tier ? Vieillissement Am?lior? >> > >> > John WA4WDL >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:17:59 -0600 > From: "Didier Juges" <didier@cox.net> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? > To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > <time-nuts@febo.com> > Message-ID: <06dc01c83927$68d90520$6501a8c0@didierhp> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so > either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is > something to it. > > Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is > actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? > > Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really > well. > > Didier KO4BB > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Richard >> (Rick) Karlquist >> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> >> Reminds me of the "SC" cut crystal. >> It either means "Stress Compensated" or "Santa Clara", where >> it was discovered :-) >> >> The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think >> that if there was really something to it, everybody would be >> making them. Of course, they are very difficult to make. >> >> Rick Karlquist N6RK > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:52:15 -0800 > From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard@karlquist.com> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > <time-nuts@febo.com> > Message-ID: <4759DCAF.1030404@karlquist.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Having low aging is nice, but the real problem is > frequency jumps. Do we know that they are the best > in that respect? If a crystal can jump 1E-10, then > that represents 10 days of aging all at once. > > Rick Karlquist, N6RK > > Didier Juges wrote: >> I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so >> either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is >> something to it. >> >> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is >> actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? >> >> Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really >> well. >> >> Didier KO4BB >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com >>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Richard >>> (Rick) Karlquist >>> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >>> >>> Reminds me of the "SC" cut crystal. >>> It either means "Stress Compensated" or "Santa Clara", where >>> it was discovered :-) >>> >>> The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think >>> that if there was really something to it, everybody would be >>> making them. Of course, they are very difficult to make. >>> >>> Rick Karlquist N6RK >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:07:00 +0100 > From: Enrico Rubiola <rubiola@femto-st.fr> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cesium Oscialltors and Low Phase Noise > Frequency Standard > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > <time-nuts@febo.com> > Message-ID: <763FA38A-AFBE-41D9-89BF-D9F798827B71@femto-st.fr> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Martyn, > designing a Cs standard is not the job for a single man, > yet I might help you to find frustrated scientists who worked > on a Cs project (some 10 years ago I took a part in a project, > designing damn impossible precision electronics). > > About the noise of your quartz oscillator, not bad. > Yet: > > Oscilloquartz 8607 has -128.5 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz, > which scales to -122.5 at 10 MHz, thus -125.5 dBc. > Off the shelf, may have some delay. > > Rakon has -132 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz, > which scales to -126 at 10 MHz, thus -129 dBc. > Small production for space, not sure you can actually > buy it. > > In your oscillator, is the power dissipated by the quartz of > 40 microwatts? > > Can you send a spectrum? > > I am getting great fun in reverse engineering the oscillator > noise. The noise I mean, not the oscillator. This takes > some 40-50 pages of my forthcoming book on > phase noise and frequency stability in oscillators. > You can't enter an order number, you must wait for > Cambridge University Press, which is a non-profit > company. > > Cheers, > Enrico > > > On 6 Dec 2007, at 15:12 , Martyn Smith wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Is there anyone out there clever enough to design me a cesium >> frequency standard?? >> >> There's only two manufacturers that I know of and there's room for >> another supplier. >> >> Also you may be interested to read we have just developed what we >> believe to be the worlds lowest close-in phase noise 10 MHz >> oscillator. >> >> It makes -121 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz. Noise floor is only -162 dBc/Hz at >> the moment, but we are working on reducing this a further 5 to 10 dB. >> >> Enter your order number here...... >> >> Best Regards >> >> Martyn >> >> This Email is from: >> >> Martyn Smith >> Precision Test Systems LTD >> Tel: +44 (0) 1245 329608 >> Email: martyn@ptsyst.com >> Web: www.ptsyst.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >> time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > Enrico Rubiola > professor of electronics > > web: http://rubiola.org > e-mail: rubiola@femto-st.fr > > FEMTO-ST Institute > 32 av. de l'Observatoire > 25044 Besancon, FRANCE > voice: +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola) > voice: +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard) > fax: +33(0)381.853998 > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:10:09 +0100 (CET) > From: Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? > To: time-nuts@febo.com, didier@cox.net > Message-ID: <20071208.011009.-1748779747.cfmd@bredband.net> > Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii > > From: "Didier Juges" <didier@cox.net> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:17:59 -0600 > Message-ID: <06dc01c83927$68d90520$6501a8c0@didierhp> > >> I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so >> either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is >> something to it. >> >> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is >> actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? > > Let's recall that the BVA isn't the same as a cut, but rather an approach > to > handle and mount the cut crystal. The BVA exists in both AT and SC cuts. > > The analysis of Rick et.al. for the E1938 was pointing in another > improvement. > > Also, there are many ways to cut a crystal. :) > > Smokescreen or not, Oscilloquartz clearly beleive in the BVA methodology > and > they seems to have customers for them too. > > Is the E1938 commercially available? If not, is there a followup? > > Do we really need BVAs or similars for most new designs, considering the > price, > size and availability of modern telecom rubidiums? > >> Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really >> well. > > Well, that would be stupid, since it is easy enought to measure and > verify. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:15:11 +0000 > From: Brian Styles <brian.styles@cdmnet.org> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > <time-nuts@febo.com> > Message-ID: <4759E20F.8090408@cdmnet.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Didier Juges wrote: > > > Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance > > is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? > > There's quite a bit of guff on the "Oscilloquartz" website - especially > if you find your way to the OXCO 8607-B datasheet (pdf). > > I'm not qualified to weigh this all up, but they point out a double oven > and an "electrodeless, SC-cut, 3rd overtone crystal, decoupled from its > mounting structure by four rigid bridges". And they go on to list the > consquent benefits. > > They've made over 10,000 of them. Anyone know what they're charging...? > > Yours, > > > > -Brian Styles > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:15:00 +0100 > From: Enrico Rubiola <rubiola@femto-st.fr> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > <time-nuts@febo.com> > Message-ID: <1DC37668-4B01-4B64-9092-845440283C49@femto-st.fr> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > BVA is a French acronym, it means > Besson Vieillissement Amelior? > Reymond Besson is the scientist who invented it, here in Besancon, > a friend of mine, officially retired, yet still at work. > "Vieillissement" means aging, > "Amelior?" means improved. > > Somebody says that it also means "Besson vieux ?ne", if you > know French, and French culture because this is not the kind > of thing you can translate without killing the meaning. > > > > On 7 Dec 2007, at 17:15 , Michael Baker wrote: > >> Hello, All-- >> >> In doing some reading to educate myself on the relative >> short and long-term stability characteristics of the best >> grade quartz resonators, I find that BVA cut resonators >> are on the leading edge of quartz crystal technology. >> >> I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but >> I have not discovered what the acronym "BVA" stands for. >> >> I suspect that the "B" in "BVA" may refer to Raymond Besson >> the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I >> have not been able to confirm that. >> >> Can anyone on the list shed some light on this? >> >> Mike Baker >> ---------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >> time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > Enrico Rubiola > professor of electronics > > web: http://rubiola.org > e-mail: rubiola@femto-st.fr > > FEMTO-ST Institute > 32 av. de l'Observatoire > 25044 Besancon, FRANCE > voice: +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola) > voice: +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard) > fax: +33(0)381.853998 > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list > time-nuts@febo.com > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 20 > ***************************************** >

Martyn Smith wrote: > Hi, > > A while ago I claimed that my company is to bring out the lowest phase noise > 10 MHz oscillator. > > This was partly done with tongue in cheek to see what response I got. > > A lot of people came back with alternative oscillators with even lower phase > noise. But I have to say I still haven't seem a better unit that is > actually available. > > Someone mentioned Oscilloquartz BVA oscillator. Although this is great at 1 > Hz, it only makes -145 dBc at 10 kHz which is very poor. Also a $10k price > and one year delivery period isn't what I call a readily available unit (not > that I am in production yet, either). > > Other units that people mentioned don't seem to be made anymore, or just not > available. > > So it seems Wenzel is still king at the moment, but they can also take 20 > weeks to deliver. > > Anyway, I've just found someone from Russia who knocks everyone out of the > air. They claim -161 dBc/Hz at 1 Hz with a -183 dBc/Hz floor noise. Now > that's what I call low noise. > > How are you going to verify these claims? What is the aging spec? > Anyone know any more about this? I'm trying to make contact with the guy > but no success yet. > > Best Regards > > Martyn > > This Email is from: > > Martyn Smith > Precision Test Systems LTD > Tel: +44 (0) 1245 329608 > Email: martyn@ptsyst.com > Web: www.ptsyst.com > > Bruce

Martyn Who was the Russian company? Regards Rob Kimberley Martyn Smith wrote: > Hi, > > A while ago I claimed that my company is to bring out the lowest phase noise > 10 MHz oscillator. > > This was partly done with tongue in cheek to see what response I got. > > A lot of people came back with alternative oscillators with even lower phase > noise. But I have to say I still haven't seem a better unit that is > actually available. > > Someone mentioned Oscilloquartz BVA oscillator. Although this is great at 1 > Hz, it only makes -145 dBc at 10 kHz which is very poor. Also a $10k price > and one year delivery period isn't what I call a readily available unit (not > that I am in production yet, either). > > Other units that people mentioned don't seem to be made anymore, or just not > available. > > So it seems Wenzel is still king at the moment, but they can also take 20 > weeks to deliver. > > Anyway, I've just found someone from Russia who knocks everyone out of the > air. They claim -161 dBc/Hz at 1 Hz with a -183 dBc/Hz floor noise. Now > that's what I call low noise. > > Anyone know any more about this? I'm trying to make contact with the guy > but no success yet. > > Best Regards > > Martyn > > This Email is from: > > Martyn Smith > Precision Test Systems LTD > Tel: +44 (0) 1245 329608 > Email: martyn@ptsyst.com > Web: www.ptsyst.com > > NOTICE - This message contains legally privileged and confidential > information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you > are not the intended recipient of this message, you are hereby notified that > you must not disseminate, distribute, copy or take any action in reliance on > it. If you have received this message in error, please notify Precision Test > Systems LTD. > > This communication represents the originator's personal views and opinions, > which do not necessarily reflect those of Precision Test Systems Ltd. from > whom it emanates. Further, Precision Test Systems Ltd. will not be held > responsible for its contents and/or attachments, if the communication > contravenes the rules of Precision Test Systems Ltd's email policy. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <time-nuts-request@febo.com> > To: <time-nuts@febo.com> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 12:15 AM > Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 20 > > > >> Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to >> time-nuts@febo.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> time-nuts-request@febo.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> time-nuts-owner@febo.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. HP105A/B technical documentation? (Christoffer Bruman) >> 2. Wavecrest DTS-2070C in the house (Magnus Danielson) >> 3. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Didier Juges) >> 4. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Didier Juges) >> 5. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) >> 6. Re: Cesium Oscialltors and Low Phase Noise Frequency Standard >> (Enrico Rubiola) >> 7. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Magnus Danielson) >> 8. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Brian Styles) >> 9. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Enrico Rubiola) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:12:49 +0100 >> From: Christoffer Bruman <bruman@telia.com> >> Subject: [time-nuts] HP105A/B technical documentation? >> To: time-nuts@febo.com >> Message-ID: <47599B31.7020703@telia.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Dear List, >> >> I am searching for a service manual (or at least a complete schematic) >> of HP:s 105A (or B) frequency standard, preferably the later version >> with the 10811x inside. There seems to be plenty of information >> downloadable on the 10811x itself, but I am interested in the details on >> how HP solved things like power supply, grounding, internal EFC, >> external DC inlet, etc in these units. >> >> If anyone has any useful links to the manual or a schematic, or >> shareable files, I would be very thankful. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Christoffer :) >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:43:36 +0100 (CET) >> From: Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> >> Subject: [time-nuts] Wavecrest DTS-2070C in the house >> To: time-nuts@febo.com >> Message-ID: <20071207.214336.-601741223.cfmd@bredband.net> >> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Hi fellow time-nuts! >> >> I am just happy to let you know that I am now proud owner of a Wavecrest >> DTS-2070C. I also have a SIA-3000P from before, which is nice for jitter >> but >> not as versatile as you would wish at all times. I think the DTS will be a >> nice >> complement. >> >> I was not suspect it to be that large thought, but ah well, life is full >> of >> supprises. >> >> It fired up and I have it doing some counting going down, but I think it >> is >> time to read the manual to figure some things out. Otherwise it seems >> fairly >> easy to operate. >> >> The LCD is BIG, so there is no chance missing the numbers even from some >> distance. >> >> Hmm. Time to make some shootout here... :) >> >> Cheers, >> Magnus >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:08:39 -0600 >> From: "Didier Juges" <didier@cox.net> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" >> <time-nuts@febo.com> >> Message-ID: <06db01c83926$1b2a0be0$6501a8c0@didierhp> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> That would be pretty close, for once (referring to google translations :-) >> >> Here is the translation from Oscilloquartz themselves: >> >> "French expression meaning "Enclosure with Improved Ageing". The OSA BVA >> crystal oscillators employ special techniques to achieve stability >> performance, unmatched by any other crystal device, i.e. typically 1 x >> 10-11/day." >> >> Didier KO4BB >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com >>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris >>> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:37 AM >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >>> >>> A googlized translation is: >>> >>> Improved Housing for Aging >>> >>> -Chuck Harris >>> >>> John Franke wrote: >>> >>>> Try: >>>> >>>> Bo?tier ? Vieillissement Am?lior? >>>> >>>> John WA4WDL >>>> >>>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:17:59 -0600 >> From: "Didier Juges" <didier@cox.net> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" >> <time-nuts@febo.com> >> Message-ID: <06dc01c83927$68d90520$6501a8c0@didierhp> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so >> either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is >> something to it. >> >> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is >> actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? >> >> Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really >> well. >> >> Didier KO4BB >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com >>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Richard >>> (Rick) Karlquist >>> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >>> >>> Reminds me of the "SC" cut crystal. >>> It either means "Stress Compensated" or "Santa Clara", where >>> it was discovered :-) >>> >>> The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think >>> that if there was really something to it, everybody would be >>> making them. Of course, they are very difficult to make. >>> >>> Rick Karlquist N6RK >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:52:15 -0800 >> From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard@karlquist.com> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> <time-nuts@febo.com> >> Message-ID: <4759DCAF.1030404@karlquist.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Having low aging is nice, but the real problem is >> frequency jumps. Do we know that they are the best >> in that respect? If a crystal can jump 1E-10, then >> that represents 10 days of aging all at once. >> >> Rick Karlquist, N6RK >> >> Didier Juges wrote: >> >>> I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so >>> either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is >>> something to it. >>> >>> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is >>> actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? >>> >>> Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really >>> well. >>> >>> Didier KO4BB >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com >>>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Richard >>>> (Rick) Karlquist >>>> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM >>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >>>> >>>> Reminds me of the "SC" cut crystal. >>>> It either means "Stress Compensated" or "Santa Clara", where >>>> it was discovered :-) >>>> >>>> The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think >>>> that if there was really something to it, everybody would be >>>> making them. Of course, they are very difficult to make. >>>> >>>> Rick Karlquist N6RK >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:07:00 +0100 >> From: Enrico Rubiola <rubiola@femto-st.fr> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cesium Oscialltors and Low Phase Noise >> Frequency Standard >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> <time-nuts@febo.com> >> Message-ID: <763FA38A-AFBE-41D9-89BF-D9F798827B71@femto-st.fr> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> Martyn, >> designing a Cs standard is not the job for a single man, >> yet I might help you to find frustrated scientists who worked >> on a Cs project (some 10 years ago I took a part in a project, >> designing damn impossible precision electronics). >> >> About the noise of your quartz oscillator, not bad. >> Yet: >> >> Oscilloquartz 8607 has -128.5 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz, >> which scales to -122.5 at 10 MHz, thus -125.5 dBc. >> Off the shelf, may have some delay. >> >> Rakon has -132 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz, >> which scales to -126 at 10 MHz, thus -129 dBc. >> Small production for space, not sure you can actually >> buy it. >> >> In your oscillator, is the power dissipated by the quartz of >> 40 microwatts? >> >> Can you send a spectrum? >> >> I am getting great fun in reverse engineering the oscillator >> noise. The noise I mean, not the oscillator. This takes >> some 40-50 pages of my forthcoming book on >> phase noise and frequency stability in oscillators. >> You can't enter an order number, you must wait for >> Cambridge University Press, which is a non-profit >> company. >> >> Cheers, >> Enrico >> >> >> On 6 Dec 2007, at 15:12 , Martyn Smith wrote: >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Is there anyone out there clever enough to design me a cesium >>> frequency standard?? >>> >>> There's only two manufacturers that I know of and there's room for >>> another supplier. >>> >>> Also you may be interested to read we have just developed what we >>> believe to be the worlds lowest close-in phase noise 10 MHz >>> oscillator. >>> >>> It makes -121 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz. Noise floor is only -162 dBc/Hz at >>> the moment, but we are working on reducing this a further 5 to 10 dB. >>> >>> Enter your order number here...... >>> >>> Best Regards >>> >>> Martyn >>> >>> This Email is from: >>> >>> Martyn Smith >>> Precision Test Systems LTD >>> Tel: +44 (0) 1245 329608 >>> Email: martyn@ptsyst.com >>> Web: www.ptsyst.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>> time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> Enrico Rubiola >> professor of electronics >> >> web: http://rubiola.org >> e-mail: rubiola@femto-st.fr >> >> FEMTO-ST Institute >> 32 av. de l'Observatoire >> 25044 Besancon, FRANCE >> voice: +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola) >> voice: +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard) >> fax: +33(0)381.853998 >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:10:09 +0100 (CET) >> From: Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> To: time-nuts@febo.com, didier@cox.net >> Message-ID: <20071208.011009.-1748779747.cfmd@bredband.net> >> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> From: "Didier Juges" <didier@cox.net> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:17:59 -0600 >> Message-ID: <06dc01c83927$68d90520$6501a8c0@didierhp> >> >> >>> I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so >>> either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is >>> something to it. >>> >>> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is >>> actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? >>> >> Let's recall that the BVA isn't the same as a cut, but rather an approach >> to >> handle and mount the cut crystal. The BVA exists in both AT and SC cuts. >> >> The analysis of Rick et.al. for the E1938 was pointing in another >> improvement. >> >> Also, there are many ways to cut a crystal. :) >> >> Smokescreen or not, Oscilloquartz clearly beleive in the BVA methodology >> and >> they seems to have customers for them too. >> >> Is the E1938 commercially available? If not, is there a followup? >> >> Do we really need BVAs or similars for most new designs, considering the >> price, >> size and availability of modern telecom rubidiums? >> >> >>> Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really >>> well. >>> >> Well, that would be stupid, since it is easy enought to measure and >> verify. >> >> Cheers, >> Magnus >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:15:11 +0000 >> From: Brian Styles <brian.styles@cdmnet.org> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> <time-nuts@febo.com> >> Message-ID: <4759E20F.8090408@cdmnet.org> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Didier Juges wrote: >> >> >>> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance >>> is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? >>> >> There's quite a bit of guff on the "Oscilloquartz" website - especially >> if you find your way to the OXCO 8607-B datasheet (pdf). >> >> I'm not qualified to weigh this all up, but they point out a double oven >> and an "electrodeless, SC-cut, 3rd overtone crystal, decoupled from its >> mounting structure by four rigid bridges". And they go on to list the >> consquent benefits. >> >> They've made over 10,000 of them. Anyone know what they're charging...? >> >> Yours, >> >> >> >> -Brian Styles >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:15:00 +0100 >> From: Enrico Rubiola <rubiola@femto-st.fr> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> <time-nuts@febo.com> >> Message-ID: <1DC37668-4B01-4B64-9092-845440283C49@femto-st.fr> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> BVA is a French acronym, it means >> Besson Vieillissement Amelior? >> Reymond Besson is the scientist who invented it, here in Besancon, >> a friend of mine, officially retired, yet still at work. >> "Vieillissement" means aging, >> "Amelior?" means improved. >> >> Somebody says that it also means "Besson vieux ?ne", if you >> know French, and French culture because this is not the kind >> of thing you can translate without killing the meaning. >> >> >> >> On 7 Dec 2007, at 17:15 , Michael Baker wrote: >> >> >>> Hello, All-- >>> >>> In doing some reading to educate myself on the relative >>> short and long-term stability characteristics of the best >>> grade quartz resonators, I find that BVA cut resonators >>> are on the leading edge of quartz crystal technology. >>> >>> I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but >>> I have not discovered what the acronym "BVA" stands for. >>> >>> I suspect that the "B" in "BVA" may refer to Raymond Besson >>> the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I >>> have not been able to confirm that. >>> >>> Can anyone on the list shed some light on this? >>> >>> Mike Baker >>> ---------------------- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>> time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> Enrico Rubiola >> professor of electronics >> >> web: http://rubiola.org >> e-mail: rubiola@femto-st.fr >> >> FEMTO-ST Institute >> 32 av. de l'Observatoire >> 25044 Besancon, FRANCE >> voice: +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola) >> voice: +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard) >> fax: +33(0)381.853998 >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list >> time-nuts@febo.com >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 20 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > >