The problem comes down to the lack of good storage to level the load. With big thermal (coal or nuke) plants the mechanical power applied to the generators has to equal the electrical power delivered to the load (ignoring losses). If more power is put in than goes out the generator speeds up and this really messes up the network. However, the load from the network is not constant. People turn things on and off. What the utilities do, approximately, is run the big plants at the average expected load. If load starts to increase or decrease, they vary the mechanical input. However, when load gets really high and the plants are maxed out, they bring on "peaking power" from gas turbines. The peaking power is more expensive, so they charge big users more. Basically, the utrilities know the demand will be greater at certain times of the day, so they charge peak rates for the KWH used during tjose times. -John ============= > I really don't understand the 'over consumption' issue when it comes to > utilities. The production of electricity, in part, is related to load. > However, the cost of the generating plant, personnel involved in running > the > operation, maintenance, etc., in other words, fixed costs, are the > substantial part. Therefore, the entity must have a sufficient revenue > stream to keep it operational. > > If you cut utilization, you will have to raise the price of a Kw-Hr. If > enough people produce their own power, and stop utilizing the 'grid' for > power, the cost or 'grid power' will go up to the point that folks being > supported by the government will not be able to afford it. Therefore, in > order to keep electricity affordable, you need to use as much as possible > so > the cost per Kw-Hr is as low as possible. > > This analysis applies to any utility, phone, cable, power, water, etc., > where the charge is on the basis of usage. > > IMO > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On > Behalf Of J. Forster > Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:49 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power > > > IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power > rationing > or fines for "overconsumption" > > YMMV, > > -John > > ================ > > >> Will & Bill, > > [snip] > >> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is >> converting everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better >> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer >> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer have a >> use for meter-readers... > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > >

In message <2292.12.6.201.196.1309211348.squirrel@popaccts.quikus.com>, "J. For ster" writes: >IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power >rationing or fines for "overconsumption" Or, if they make your electricity bill go down: An fair attempt to make the consumers pay the correct price for their actual usage. It's all a matter of perspective. I was quite surprised when I read in SF.Chron recently that there are consumers in No.Cal who pays more for a kWh than we do here in Denmark, (.38$/kWh) I thought we had the highest (taxed) rates in the civilized world, but I guess not. Energy never was cheap, we just deluded ourselves into thinking so. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

Many of them include the ability to remotely turn off supply- something thats not so well known as its not had much use as yet... DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Forster" <jfor@quik.com> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power > IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power > rationing or fines for "overconsumption" > > YMMV, > > -John > > ================ > > >> Will & Bill, > > [snip] > >> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting >> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better >> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer >> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer >> have a use for meter-readers... > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

I remember experimenting as a kid, running small low voltage bulbs of the earth and neutral lines in our house. Rob K -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jason Rabel Sent: 27 June 2011 9:38 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power Will & Bill, Our (commercial) three phase power is fed by only two high-voltage wires (7,200v I think) which each pole has a pair of transformers. I can only assume one generates the 220v single phase lines and the other is the high-leg delta. Around here 230v three phase delta seems to be more common than 208v Y style. I remember a couple years ago we had a transformer die (thankfully it was a passive failure and not a massive fireball on the pole). People were wondering why their machines weren't working (but the lights were on)... Sure enough hooking up a meter and the high leg was dead... I did read somewhere that this change might have an effect on demand meters? There was no further explanation unfortunately, but that does kind of worry me as I know about 90% of the meters on our property are that style. The power company just loves to tack on a "demand charge" to the bill, which can often double, or triple the cost of your electric... Just because you want to have the lights on, A/C running, and an air-compressor... :( I've never seen or heard of anyone here in Houston with three phase residential (except for farmers, but I guess they are commercial). Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer have a use for meter-readers... _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

Exactly. -John ============= > Many of them include the ability to remotely turn off supply- something > thats not so well known as its not had much use as yet... > DaveB, NZ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J. Forster" <jfor@quik.com> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > <time-nuts@febo.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:49 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power > > >> IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power >> rationing or fines for "overconsumption" >> >> YMMV, >> >> -John >> >> ================ >> >> >>> Will & Bill, >> >> [snip] >> >>> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is >>> converting >>> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better >>> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer >>> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer >>> have a use for meter-readers... >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > >

They ARE a lot cheaper than actually building more power plants. What with all the government permits and lawsuits that takes time, money, effort. A "Smart" grid is much simpler, and can make them just as much money. Tom Frank On Jun 27, 2011, at 5:49 PM, J. Forster wrote: > IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power > rationing or fines for "overconsumption" > > YMMV, > > -John > > ================ > > >> Will & Bill, > > [snip] > >> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting >> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better >> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer >> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer >> have a use for meter-readers...

My point was that it is largely governmental regulation and hurdles to building new plants that drive up the cost of new electricity. The current administration wants power prices to "skyrocket" and have said so. The same thing applies to the overregulation of many other industries. Look at the idiocy of RoHS and solder. -John =================== > They ARE a lot cheaper than actually building more power plants. > > What with all the government permits and lawsuits that takes time, money, > effort. > > A "Smart" grid is much simpler, and can make them just as much money. > > Tom Frank > > On Jun 27, 2011, at 5:49 PM, J. Forster wrote: > >> IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power >> rationing or fines for "overconsumption" >> >> YMMV, >> >> -John >> >> ================ >> >> >>> Will & Bill, >> >> [snip] >> >>> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is >>> converting >>> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better >>> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer >>> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer >>> have a use for meter-readers... > > >