Jason,

I've read some about the new meters, but AEP hasn't touched any of
ours...yet. They have demand monitoring here too, and you are correct, it
can really rack up a power bill. A good friend that owns a machine shop
watches his all the time. Once you get three phase power, the costs
skyrocket, as they bill you for all kinds of things. That was why I made
the decision of using a phase converter that time, and buying all of my
machinery with 230 Vac motors, though some were dual voltage.

Without really setting down and looking at the circuitry on the new meters,
its hard to say what might happen, as I was speculating earlier. The last
PDF I read, was about the circuits they added to stop folks from bypassing
them, or stealing the electricity. I think that it was Analog Devices who
were making the IC's for these, but I may be wrong. There was 2-3 app notes
I read, as I was interested in seeing how they did it.

You are also right, in that they will do away with the meter readers. If I
recall, I read that they use a radio link to send the info back to the
office, or something similar.

Best,

Will

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 6/27/2011 at 3:38 PM Jason Rabel wrote:

(7,200v I think) which each pole has a pair of

and the other is the high-leg delta. Around here 230v

a passive failure and not a massive fireball on the pole).

were on)... Sure enough hooking up a meter and the high leg

meters? There was no further explanation unfortunately, but

property are that style. The power company just loves to tack on

of your electric... Just because you want to have the

residential (except for farmers, but I guess they are

everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better

real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer

https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

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It wasn't Analog Devices, like I thought, but Teridian Semi, and division
of Maxim, who makes the chips. The part number in question was a 71M6511.
The app note is 4889.pdf from Maxim.

Best,

Will

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 6/27/2011 at 5:03 PM Will Matney wrote:

meters,

notes

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signature database 5851 (20110206) __________

On 06/27/2011 10:38 PM, Jason Rabel wrote:

If the communications to/from them is in the CENELEC A band (or
similar), one may have to go to great lengths in order to have
60..77.5kHz clocks/receivers working.

http://n1.taur.dk/dcf/tm.png
(scope)
http://n1.taur.dk/dcf/idleannot.png
(quiet)
http://n1.taur.dk/dcf/active.png
(active on the high channel in A band)

I am only 500km from DCF77 (Denmark), and since they replaced the meter
with a 'smart' one, none of the radio clocks have been able to sync.

Only the phase tracking receiver, having a noise blanker, still works.

So I do not like 'smart' meters.

/Kasper Pedersen

IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power
rationing or fines for "overconsumption"

YMMV,

-John

================

[snip]

Hi John:

Yes.

In S. California there was a big investigation about their accuracy.  It
turned out that they are better than the mechanical meters, BUT if time
of day metering is implemented along with the smart meter you power bill
can up by hundreds of percent.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com

J. Forster wrote:

John,

Well, of course, that's so the fat cats, who are at the top at the
utilitites, and the stock holders, make more bucks without having to
upgrade the grid to do it. That's a prime example of Capitalism at work.
How was the old saying, they would "squeeze a nickel until the buffalo
s##ts".

Best,

Will

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 6/27/2011 at 2:49 PM J. Forster wrote:

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I bet they'll drop estimating your bill too!

Best,

Will

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On 6/27/2011 at 2:54 PM Brooke Clarke wrote:

converting

https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

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signature database 5851 (20110206) __________

YThere are limits to corporate greed, as well as market feedback
mechanisms. Such constraints do npot apply to governments.

Suppose electricity went to $5/KWH:

If it were done by a utility, people would buy generators.
If it were legislated by government, generators could be outlawed.

YMMV,

-John

=================

I really don't understand the 'over consumption' issue when it comes to
utilities.  The production of electricity, in part, is related to load.
However, the cost of the generating plant, personnel involved in running the
operation, maintenance, etc., in other words, fixed costs, are the
substantial part.  Therefore, the entity must have a sufficient revenue
stream to keep it operational.

If you cut utilization, you will have to raise the price of a Kw-Hr.  If
enough people produce their own power, and stop utilizing the 'grid' for
power, the cost or 'grid power' will go up to the point that folks being
supported by the government will not be able to afford it.  Therefore, in
order to keep electricity affordable, you need to use as much as possible so
the cost per Kw-Hr is as low as possible.

This analysis applies to any utility, phone, cable, power, water, etc.,
where the charge is on the basis of usage.

IMO

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of J. Forster
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power rationing
or fines for "overconsumption"

YMMV,

-John

================

[snip]

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.

The problem comes down to the lack of good storage to level the load.

With big thermal (coal or nuke) plants the mechanical power applied to the
generators has to equal the electrical power delivered to the load
(ignoring losses). If more power is put in than goes out the generator
speeds up and this really messes up the network.

However, the load from the network is not constant. People turn things on
and off.

What the utilities do, approximately, is run the big plants at the average
expected load. If load starts to increase or decrease, they vary the
mechanical input. However, when load gets really high and the plants are
maxed out, they bring on "peaking power" from gas turbines. The peaking
power is more expensive, so they charge big users more.

Basically, the utrilities know the demand will be greater at certain times
of the day, so they charge peak rates for the KWH used during tjose times.

-John

=============

In message 2292.12.6.201.196.1309211348.squirrel@popaccts.quikus.com, "J. For
ster" writes:

Or, if they make your electricity bill go down:  An fair attempt to make
the consumers pay the correct price for their actual usage.

It's all a matter of perspective.

I was quite surprised when I read in SF.Chron recently that there
are consumers in No.Cal who pays more for a kWh than we do here in
Denmark, (.38$/kWh) I thought we had the highest (taxed) rates in
the civilized world, but I guess not.

Energy never was cheap, we just deluded ourselves into thinking so.

Poul-Henning

--
Poul-Henning Kamp      | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG        | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer      | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

Many of them include the ability to remotely turn off supply- something
thats not so well known as its not had much use as yet...
DaveB, NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Forster" jfor@quik.com
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power

Exactly.

-John

=============

They ARE a lot cheaper than actually building more power plants.

What with all the government permits and lawsuits that takes time, money, effort.

A "Smart" grid is much simpler, and can make them just as much money.

Tom Frank

On Jun 27, 2011, at 5:49 PM, J. Forster wrote:

My point was that it is largely governmental regulation and hurdles to
building new plants that drive up the cost of new electricity. The current
administration wants power prices to "skyrocket" and have said so.

The same thing applies to the overregulation of many other industries.
Look at the idiocy of RoHS and solder.

-John

===================