US New Year countdown - accurate?
Hi folks,
Ignoring the travesty of a lyric change on John Lennon's classic song, did
anyone check to see if the clock countdown in Times Square was actually
accurate?
In times gone past countdowns have been notoriously off (worst I saw was a
tv personality using his own watch and it was 25 seconds out).
Oh and why we're at it here is my worst time-nut story...
Pulled up in a "Loading Zone 8-6pm" at 18:00:10. Got out, came back 4
minutes later to find a parking officer giving me a ticket.
Me: "Look at the time (showing my watch) - it's 6:04"
Him: "Not by my watch" (which said 5:59 at that point).
Me (massive sarcasm voice): "So. Let me get this straight. Despite
worldwide time standards keeping clocks accurate to billionths of a second
and costing millions of dollars, all that is now been binned and we now
keep world official time by your watch. Is that right?".
Him: "Bu..."
Me (interrupting and pulling out mobile): "Let's listen to the national
time standard shall we?" (I dial and put on speaker - his watch is a good
solid 5 minutes slow).
Him: Walks off screwing up ticket.
The sheer arrogance of the "Not by my watch" comment irks me to this day.
Jim
To me the ball drop/fireworks was different from the on-screen time on FOX
by a few secnds.
-John
=============h
Hi folks,
Ignoring the travesty of a lyric change on John Lennon's classic song, did
anyone check to see if the clock countdown in Times Square was actually
accurate?
In times gone past countdowns have been notoriously off (worst I saw was a
tv personality using his own watch and it was 25 seconds out).
Oh and why we're at it here is my worst time-nut story...
Pulled up in a "Loading Zone 8-6pm" at 18:00:10. Got out, came back 4
minutes later to find a parking officer giving me a ticket.
Me: "Look at the time (showing my watch) - it's 6:04"
Him: "Not by my watch" (which said 5:59 at that point).
Me (massive sarcasm voice): "So. Let me get this straight. Despite
worldwide time standards keeping clocks accurate to billionths of a second
and costing millions of dollars, all that is now been binned and we now
keep world official time by your watch. Is that right?".
Him: "Bu..."
Me (interrupting and pulling out mobile): "Let's listen to the national
time standard shall we?" (I dial and put on speaker - his watch is a good
solid 5 minutes slow).
Him: Walks off screwing up ticket.
The sheer arrogance of the "Not by my watch" comment irks me to this day.
Jim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I think he was mostly ticked off because he came to work 5 minutes early...
Didier KO4BB
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Palfreyman jim77742@gmail.com
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 12:46:30
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] US New Year countdown - accurate?
Hi folks,
Ignoring the travesty of a lyric change on John Lennon's classic song, did
anyone check to see if the clock countdown in Times Square was actually
accurate?
In times gone past countdowns have been notoriously off (worst I saw was a
tv personality using his own watch and it was 25 seconds out).
Oh and why we're at it here is my worst time-nut story...
Pulled up in a "Loading Zone 8-6pm" at 18:00:10. Got out, came back 4
minutes later to find a parking officer giving me a ticket.
Me: "Look at the time (showing my watch) - it's 6:04"
Him: "Not by my watch" (which said 5:59 at that point).
Me (massive sarcasm voice): "So. Let me get this straight. Despite
worldwide time standards keeping clocks accurate to billionths of a second
and costing millions of dollars, all that is now been binned and we now
keep world official time by your watch. Is that right?".
Him: "Bu..."
Me (interrupting and pulling out mobile): "Let's listen to the national
time standard shall we?" (I dial and put on speaker - his watch is a good
solid 5 minutes slow).
Him: Walks off screwing up ticket.
The sheer arrogance of the "Not by my watch" comment irks me to this day.
Jim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
But TV goes through a lot of buffering these days. I wouldn't expect it
to be too accurate.
I'm beginning to think this is not an uncommon thing. One of the local TV stations (KING 5) does "New Year's at the Needle" every year, and they always have an on-screen countdown to midnight.
For as long as I've had GPS-referenced clocks, their count has been off. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow (this year, slow by about 12 seconds).
You'd think a network broadcast station could afford a simple GPS clock. Apparently not...
Happy ticking.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 02-Jan-12 at 12:46 Jim Palfreyman wrote:
Hi folks,
Ignoring the travesty of a lyric change on John Lennon's classic song, did
anyone check to see if the clock countdown in Times Square was actually
accurate?
In times gone past countdowns have been notoriously off (worst I saw was a
tv personality using his own watch and it was 25 seconds out).
Oh and why we're at it here is my worst time-nut story...
Pulled up in a "Loading Zone 8-6pm" at 18:00:10. Got out, came back 4
minutes later to find a parking officer giving me a ticket.
Me: "Look at the time (showing my watch) - it's 6:04"
Him: "Not by my watch" (which said 5:59 at that point).
Me (massive sarcasm voice): "So. Let me get this straight. Despite
worldwide time standards keeping clocks accurate to billionths of a second
and costing millions of dollars, all that is now been binned and we now
keep world official time by your watch. Is that right?".
Him: "Bu..."
Me (interrupting and pulling out mobile): "Let's listen to the national
time standard shall we?" (I dial and put on speaker - his watch is a good
solid 5 minutes slow).
Him: Walks off screwing up ticket.
The sheer arrogance of the "Not by my watch" comment irks me to this day.
Jim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m
"Quid Malmborg in Plano..."
On 01/02/2012 03:16 AM, gary wrote:
But TV goes through a lot of buffering these days. I wouldn't expect it
to be too accurate.
You need to recall that temporal compression of MPEG2/MPEG4 requires
time to buffer up and rebuild. You could even have at least two such
link, one from the OB-bus to the TV house, and another from the TV house
out to the transmitters. These days satellite is popular in the US for
transmitter feeds... not to speak of...
Looking at the TV and try to do timing is not very relevant. You should
get same minute, but not same second kind of offsets.
So, dropping the ball.. was someone there and compared to a sufficiently
accurate clock?
Cheers,
Magnus
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 05:54:46PM -0800, J. Forster wrote:
To me the ball drop/fireworks was different from the on-screen time on FOX
by a few secnds.
I was watching the media pool HD satellite feed on AMC-1 and
through a broadcast grade IRD (ex PBS Bitlink ) it appeared to be about
2 seconds slow relative to my house NTP timing. This would about
exactly match what I would expect for uplink encoder, satellite path,
and decoder delays.
I would expect a TV station using that feed might add anywhere
from 1-6 seconds to the delay in their internal processing to OTA... and
a digital cable system might add further delay to that (couple of more
seconds at least).
Real time TV these days is only RELATIVELY real time.
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
I was referencing anything to an external, local reference. My comment was
the time difference between the FOX on screen timing and the ball dropping
fireworks. Presumably, the on-screen timing was inserted at their local
control center in NYC, not after satellite hops.
-John
============
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 05:54:46PM -0800, J. Forster wrote:
To me the ball drop/fireworks was different from the on-screen time on
FOX
by a few secnds.
I was watching the media pool HD satellite feed on AMC-1 and
through a broadcast grade IRD (ex PBS Bitlink ) it appeared to be about
2 seconds slow relative to my house NTP timing. This would about
exactly match what I would expect for uplink encoder, satellite path,
and decoder delays.
I would expect a TV station using that feed might add anywhere
from 1-6 seconds to the delay in their internal processing to OTA... and
a digital cable system might add further delay to that (couple of more
seconds at least).
Real time TV these days is only RELATIVELY real time.
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole -
in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
either."
On 01/02/2012 06:09 AM, David I. Emery wrote:
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 05:54:46PM -0800, J. Forster wrote:
To me the ball drop/fireworks was different from the on-screen time on FOX
by a few secnds.
I was watching the media pool HD satellite feed on AMC-1 and
through a broadcast grade IRD (ex PBS Bitlink ) it appeared to be about
2 seconds slow relative to my house NTP timing. This would about
exactly match what I would expect for uplink encoder, satellite path,
and decoder delays.
I would expect a TV station using that feed might add anywhere
from 1-6 seconds to the delay in their internal processing to OTA... and
a digital cable system might add further delay to that (couple of more
seconds at least).
Real time TV these days is only RELATIVELY real time.
When doing interviews on live TV across the atlantic, using uncompressed
video and audio have been used to avoid the anoying delays.
But the highly technical world now has more delay than we used to.
Progress... :P
Cheers,
Magnus
On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 06:20:36 +0100, Magnus Danielson
magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
On 01/02/2012 06:09 AM, David I. Emery wrote:
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 05:54:46PM -0800, J. Forster wrote:
To me the ball drop/fireworks was different from the on-screen time on FOX
by a few secnds.
I was watching the media pool HD satellite feed on AMC-1 and
through a broadcast grade IRD (ex PBS Bitlink ) it appeared to be about
2 seconds slow relative to my house NTP timing. This would about
exactly match what I would expect for uplink encoder, satellite path,
and decoder delays.
I would expect a TV station using that feed might add anywhere
from 1-6 seconds to the delay in their internal processing to OTA... and
a digital cable system might add further delay to that (couple of more
seconds at least).
Real time TV these days is only RELATIVELY real time.
When doing interviews on live TV across the atlantic, using uncompressed
video and audio have been used to avoid the anoying delays.
But the highly technical world now has more delay than we used to.
Progress... :P
Even 10 years ago when watching live interviews from space, the TV
coverage was significantly delayed compared to the NASA audio feed
which was broadcast over the local amateur repeaters.
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 09:14:03PM -0800, J. Forster wrote:
I was referencing anything to an external, local reference. My comment was
the time difference between the FOX on screen timing and the ball dropping
fireworks. Presumably, the on-screen timing was inserted at their local
control center in NYC, not after satellite hops.
Fox was producing and uplinking that in NYC, though I suspect
the primary link back to their master control was fiber through the NYC
media switch with very low delay. I was not watching the Fox show
(don't watch much Fox) but I rather suspect the production trailer was
where the screen overlay got added to the video.
Doubtless nobody bothered to get the time on the graphics
inserter system set to match the real time and camera video... most of the
time nobody cares or notices. Quite possibly it has manually set time
of day from a web page or front panel rather than even house time codes, which
themselves may not be GPS synced.
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
Could well be. The ball-drop guys could have been off too. I've no idea
who or why any were off. And it really doesn't matter much. In all
probability, nobody other than a real time nut cares anyway.
-John
============
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 09:14:03PM -0800, J. Forster wrote:
I was referencing anything to an external, local reference. My comment
was
the time difference between the FOX on screen timing and the ball
dropping
fireworks. Presumably, the on-screen timing was inserted at their local
control center in NYC, not after satellite hops.
Fox was producing and uplinking that in NYC, though I suspect
the primary link back to their master control was fiber through the NYC
media switch with very low delay. I was not watching the Fox show
(don't watch much Fox) but I rather suspect the production trailer was
where the screen overlay got added to the video.
Doubtless nobody bothered to get the time on the graphics
inserter system set to match the real time and camera video... most of
the
time nobody cares or notices. Quite possibly it has manually set time
of day from a web page or front panel rather than even house time codes,
which
themselves may not be GPS synced.
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole -
in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
either."
Hi folks,
Ignoring the travesty of a lyric change on John Lennon's classic song,
did
anyone check to see if the clock countdown in Times Square was actually
accurate?
In times gone past countdowns have been notoriously off (worst I saw was
a
tv personality using his own watch and it was 25 seconds out).
[]
Jim
Another example: Watching Formula 1 races (where the timing at the circuit
is usually pretty accurate judging by the events I've attended) over
terrestrial TV here in the UK usually results in an offset of 5-7 seconds.
The radio feed is usually much less delayed. Yes, there are satellite
links, but also the digital TV compression and multiplexing etc. accounts
for a significant delay. The BBC always used to have a clock showing
before the 21:00 news (for example). All that stopped when TV went
digital.
They have stopped sending the pips (Greenwich Time Signal) on BBC Radio 3.
It might be interesting for someone with the right kit to compare the pips
over AM or FM radio with UTC, and with the same pips over terrestrial
(Freeview) or satellite TV distribution - that's if the pips are still
broadcast anywhere ... yes, Radio 4 at 07:00, I am advised.
It's back to the old saying: If you want it done right, do it yourself!
73,
David GM8ARV
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
The BBC "pips" are heard on XM. The GPS in my car flips about the same
time as the top of the hour broadcast. I don't know if it is perfect,
but good enough for government work.
Hi Jim,
Well done, on the parking. Earlier this year I noticed that a new "pay and display" meter in the city center (Cambridge UK) has what appears o be a GPS patch antenna on top. Presumably a GPS receiver is cheaper than manually setting time or arguing it out in court. Anyone got information on this application? I suppose it could also be a data antenna.
My pet parking hate is "pay and display" meters that charge odd amounts for fixed time periods and no change. e.g. 80p for 1/2 hour, £1.60 for an hour. If you only have a pound coin you get 1/2 hour, not 37 minutes.
Robert G8RPI.
From: Jim Palfreyman jim77742@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 1:46
Subject: [time-nuts] US New Year countdown - accurate?
Hi folks,
Ignoring the travesty of a lyric change on John Lennon's classic song, did
anyone check to see if the clock countdown in Times Square was actually
accurate?
In times gone past countdowns have been notoriously off (worst I saw was a
tv personality using his own watch and it was 25 seconds out).
Oh and why we're at it here is my worst time-nut story...
Pulled up in a "Loading Zone 8-6pm" at 18:00:10. Got out, came back 4
minutes later to find a parking officer giving me a ticket.
Me: "Look at the time (showing my watch) - it's 6:04"
Him: "Not by my watch" (which said 5:59 at that point).
Me (massive sarcasm voice): "So. Let me get this straight. Despite
worldwide time standards keeping clocks accurate to billionths of a second
and costing millions of dollars, all that is now been binned and we now
keep world official time by your watch. Is that right?".
Him: "Bu..."
Me (interrupting and pulling out mobile): "Let's listen to the national
time standard shall we?" (I dial and put on speaker - his watch is a good
solid 5 minutes slow).
Him: Walks off screwing up ticket.
The sheer arrogance of the "Not by my watch" comment irks me to this day.
Jim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Le 02/01/2012 13:44, Robert Atkinson a écrit :
Hi Jim,
Well done, on the parking. Earlier this year I noticed that a new "pay and display" meter in the city center (Cambridge UK) has what appears o be a GPS patch antenna on top. Presumably a GPS receiver is cheaper than manually setting time or arguing it out in court. Anyone got information on this application? I suppose it could also be a data antenna.
My pet parking hate is "pay and display" meters that charge odd amounts for fixed time periods and no change. e.g. 80p for 1/2 hour, £1.60 for an hour. If you only have a pound coin you get 1/2 hour, not 37 minutes.
Robert G8RPI.
I'm sure someone with patience and and deep pockets could contest the
missing time. The weights and measures act 1976 includes the second as a
unit of measure under the act . As time is the product being sold in
this context, it is probably covered by the act. I suggest you are
being short changed.
It's a sneaky way of raising taxes without seeming to raise taxes.
How much money is similarily wasted on prepaid credit or gift cards? You
either buy something more expensive and use the card for only part of the
bill, or just throw away the remaining money.
Either way, it's a scam.
-John
============
Hi Jim,
Well done, on the parking. Earlier this year I noticed that a new "pay and
display" meter in the city center (Cambridge UK) has what appears o be a
GPS patch antenna on top. Presumably a GPS receiver is cheaper than
manually setting time or arguing it out in court. Anyone got information
on this application? I suppose it could also be a data antenna.
My pet parking hate is "pay and display" meters that charge odd amounts
for fixed time periods and no change. e.g. 80p for 1/2 hour, £1.60 for an
hour. If you only have a pound coin you get 1/2 hour, not 37 minutes.
Robert G8RPI.
From: Jim Palfreyman jim77742@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 1:46
Subject: [time-nuts] US New Year countdown - accurate?
Hi folks,
Ignoring the travesty of a lyric change on John Lennon's classic song, did
anyone check to see if the clock countdown in Times Square was actually
accurate?
In times gone past countdowns have been notoriously off (worst I saw was a
tv personality using his own watch and it was 25 seconds out).
Oh and why we're at it here is my worst time-nut story...
Pulled up in a "Loading Zone 8-6pm" at 18:00:10. Got out, came back 4
minutes later to find a parking officer giving me a ticket.
Me: "Look at the time (showing my watch) - it's 6:04"
Him: "Not by my watch" (which said 5:59 at that point).
Me (massive sarcasm voice): "So. Let me get this straight. Despite
worldwide time standards keeping clocks accurate to billionths of a second
and costing millions of dollars, all that is now been binned and we now
keep world official time by your watch. Is that right?".
Him: "Bu..."
Me (interrupting and pulling out mobile): "Let's listen to the national
time standard shall we?" (I dial and put on speaker - his watch is a good
solid 5 minutes slow).
Him: Walks off screwing up ticket.
The sheer arrogance of the "Not by my watch" comment irks me to this day.
Jim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
How do you propose to prove that in a court of law? Seize the cop's watch
as "evidence"? Somehow I don't think that's very likely.
You might be able to prove a parking meter is running fast (giving 50
minutes for an hour's pay) but a time of day? Unlikely, IMO.
-John
===========
Le 02/01/2012 13:44, Robert Atkinson a écrit :
Hi Jim,
Well done, on the parking. Earlier this year I noticed that a new "pay
and display" meter in the city center (Cambridge UK) has what appears o
be a GPS patch antenna on top. Presumably a GPS receiver is cheaper than
manually setting time or arguing it out in court. Anyone got information
on this application? I suppose it could also be a data antenna.
My pet parking hate is "pay and display" meters that charge odd amounts
for fixed time periods and no change. e.g. 80p for 1/2 hour, £1.60 for
an hour. If you only have a pound coin you get 1/2 hour, not 37 minutes.
Robert G8RPI.
I'm sure someone with patience and and deep pockets could contest the
missing time. The weights and measures act 1976 includes the second as a
unit of measure under the act . As time is the product being sold in
this context, it is probably covered by the act. I suggest you are
being short changed.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
"Real time TV these days is only RELATIVELY real time."
Well there goes the credibility of reality TV for me!
Tom Holmes, N8ZM
Tipp City, OH
EM79
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David I. Emery
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 12:09 AM
To: jfor@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] US New Year countdown - accurate?
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 05:54:46PM -0800, J. Forster wrote:
To me the ball drop/fireworks was different from the on-screen time on
FOX
by a few secnds.
I was watching the media pool HD satellite feed on AMC-1 and
through a broadcast grade IRD (ex PBS Bitlink ) it appeared to be about
2 seconds slow relative to my house NTP timing. This would about
exactly match what I would expect for uplink encoder, satellite path,
and decoder delays.
I would expect a TV station using that feed might add anywhere
from 1-6 seconds to the delay in their internal processing to OTA... and
a digital cable system might add further delay to that (couple of more
seconds at least).
Real time TV these days is only RELATIVELY real time.
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole -
in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
either."
and follow the instructions there.
On 02/01/12 08:14, David J Taylor wrote:
Another example: Watching Formula 1 races (where the timing at the
circuit is usually pretty accurate judging by the events I've attended)
over terrestrial TV here in the UK usually results in an offset of 5-7
seconds. The radio feed is usually much less delayed. Yes, there are
satellite links, but also the digital TV compression and multiplexing
etc. accounts for a significant delay.
Part of that is the fact that it's beamed back to Bernie's Bunker at
Silverstone, before being fed on to the broadcasters, and then onto
the actual transmitting company so you have that extra delay to add in
as well.
Indeed, it's fun watching with the timing and scoring app on the laptop,
with the commentators wondering (or thinking) such and such a driver is
going to get pole or improve his time, and I already know he hasn't!
Iain