Form Factor and such, Big Picture
I think I'm missing the big picture. What sort of things are people
interested in building? Will they all be a reasonable fit with a single Form
Factor, Bus, and whatever?
I've been thinking of something like a mother board with FPGA that would fit
in something like the Hammond boxes. The idea is that the FPGA is the part
that's hard for me because I can't handle soldering BGAs. All the front-end
analog stuff would go on a daughter card.
The hardware interface between the mother/daughter cards is just a row (or 3)
of pins/sockets for 0.1 inch connectors. (or anything similar) Software
interface is TBD. It might make sense to publish a "standard" interface for
some application so the same firmware on the motherboard would work for
various front ends.
It might make sense to put an ARM next to the FPGA. You can get a lot of CPU
for $10-20.
I'm not sure what the back end sould look like. I'd be happy with USB or
Serial. They are dumb/simple and don't require massive protocol stacks. I
could live with Ethernet, but it really raises the bar for getting off the
ground. (I'm not interested in running a web server on my toys. All I want
is simple command/response. I'll put the web server on a PC that has access
to all the archived data.)
It might make sense to have a back-end daughter card.
With that sort of setup, I think I could build a 5370 class box that I could
use for long term data collection. Does that seem reasonable?
I don't need the full flexibility of the 5370 front end. I'm willing to use
jumpers or a soldering iron for things like AC vs DC coupling and 50 ohm
termination.
On the other hand, how much board space would a spectrum analyzer take?
Should we be discussing 2 sizes of projects?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
I think you have the idea, especially the part about needing only a
very few wires between the daughter boards. But if that is the case
why have a motherboard and what do you do with an FPGA?
So my idea is that daughter cards each go in a small aluminum box of
their own and connect between boxes with, as you say "just a few
wires". One or more of these boxes would connect to analog signals to
be measured and at least one of the boxes would provide an interface
to a computer or to a human.
I think it is agreed not to use any part that has a BGA. Use only
parts that can be hand soldered.
I do think they all can fit on the same 100x160mm size PCB because if
a module to so complex that it can't fit, it can be split ion half and
use two PCBs.
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net wrote:
I think I'm missing the big picture. What sort of things are people
interested in building? Will they all be a reasonable fit with a single Form
Factor, Bus, and whatever?
I've been thinking of something like a mother board with FPGA that would fit
in something like the Hammond boxes. The idea is that the FPGA is the part
that's hard for me because I can't handle soldering BGAs. All the front-end
analog stuff would go on a daughter card.
The hardware interface between the mother/daughter cards is just a row (or 3)
of pins/sockets for 0.1 inch connectors. (or anything similar) Software
interface is TBD. It might make sense to publish a "standard" interface for
some application so the same firmware on the motherboard would work for
various front ends.
It might make sense to put an ARM next to the FPGA. You can get a lot of CPU
for $10-20.
I'm not sure what the back end sould look like. I'd be happy with USB or
Serial. They are dumb/simple and don't require massive protocol stacks. I
could live with Ethernet, but it really raises the bar for getting off the
ground. (I'm not interested in running a web server on my toys. All I want
is simple command/response. I'll put the web server on a PC that has access
to all the archived data.)
It might make sense to have a back-end daughter card.
With that sort of setup, I think I could build a 5370 class box that I could
use for long term data collection. Does that seem reasonable?
I don't need the full flexibility of the 5370 front end. I'm willing to use
jumpers or a soldering iron for things like AC vs DC coupling and 50 ohm
termination.
On the other hand, how much board space would a spectrum analyzer take?
Should we be discussing 2 sizes of projects?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Comments inline. Hopefully I've edited this enough to prevent it being
overwhelming.
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net wrote:
I think I'm missing the big picture. What sort of things are people
interested in building? Will they all be a reasonable fit with a single Form
Factor, Bus, and whatever?
The overarching goal is to build a time interval counter similar to an
HP 5370 with performance better than a PICTIC II.
I've been thinking of something like a mother board with FPGA that would fit
in something like the Hammond boxes. The idea is that the FPGA is the part
that's hard for me because I can't handle soldering BGAs. All the front-end
analog stuff would go on a daughter card.
I've been thinking similarly. FPGA is one possibility for part of the
core function. FPGA's are quite available in in BGA footprints,
though most are fine pitch QFP packages.
Everything ends up in one box no larger than a 5370, preferably much
smaller. But module definitions and overall design will dictate the
final box form factor. Form follows function and all that.
The hardware interface between the mother/daughter cards is just a row (or 3)
of pins/sockets for 0.1 inch connectors. (or anything similar) Software
interface is TBD. It might make sense to publish a "standard" interface for
some application so the same firmware on the motherboard would work for
various front ends.
Again, my thinking. Main board has 2, possibly 4 input daughtercard
connectors. Internal interconnect pinout is well defined, though, as I
said earlier, some pins may be 'designated for future use' and simply
run to spare pins on a microcontroller or FPGA.
It might make sense to put an ARM next to the FPGA. You can get a lot of CPU
for $10-20.
ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for
complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO
support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a
cost to complexity.
I have a stack of Domino microcontrollers that I use in similar
project. Great, but expensive. All rolled up with ram. rom, serial
port, and a BASIC interpreter in a module a bit bigger than a 40 pin
DIP. But not really suitable (or commonly available anymore) methinks.
I'm not sure what the back end sould look like. I'd be happy with USB or
Serial. They are dumb/simple and don't require massive protocol stacks. I
could live with Ethernet, but it really raises the bar for getting off the
ground. (I'm not interested in running a web server on my toys. All I want
is simple command/response. I'll put the web server on a PC that has access
to all the archived data.)
My suggestion of TTL serial was based on the thinking that you can
terminate that in four different COTS chipsets that will convert it to
rs232, USB (which appears to the host as a COM port), ethernet (simple
serial<->telnet on a chip solution), or ethernet (single module with
serial inputs and a web server). The builder can select any of the
above, buy the appropriate pcb, populate it, and plug it in.
It might make sense to have a back-end daughter card.
That was my expectation. It could be as simple as a level shifter or a
standalone controller/web server/whatever else you want to cram in
there. Similar for a front end control panel. V1 might be a few LEDs
and switches. V2 might be an LCD panel, a microconroller and a bunch
of switches. Connector to a front panel i/o module probably ought to
have plenty of pins. :)
We could also put in a big connector on the main board to plug in a
later, bigger, better, more powerful controller. That leads to a
discussion of separating the core counter from the controller.
With that sort of setup, I think I could build a 5370 class box that I could
use for long term data collection. Does that seem reasonable?
See aforementioned goal. Sounds good to me.
I don't need the full flexibility of the 5370 front end. I'm willing to use
jumpers or a soldering iron for things like AC vs DC coupling and 50 ohm
termination.
Hence the joy of several possible input modules. Personally, I'd like
a module with the flexibility to change the termination and
attenuation via a front panel switch, much like a Tek DC5010 counter.
Those features might or might not be something that the main
controller might want to be aware of or have control over. In a
simplest version, they are all local to the input board. If I want to
do the SW dev, the control and status could be passed back to the
controller via a few pins on the daughter board connector. So V1 of
the input board is not much more than maybe a buffer and some clamping
diodes. V8 might have a microcontroller in it that autosenses the
input signal and spits out a full description to the main board, where
it is displayed on the VGA monitor connected to the FPGA. (ok, I'll
put down the crack pipe now...)
On the other hand, how much board space would a spectrum analyzer take?
Should we be discussing 2 sizes of projects?
Spec An would be out of scope for this project. But is also an
interesting project. Let's finish this one first. :)
A modern counter is usually based around multichannel high resolution
time stamping.
To measure frequency one time stamps the output of a divider and
combines these results with the number of unknown frequency periods
between successive time stamps.
For example, one may divide down the reference (eg 10MHz) to produce the
desired gate time.
This gate signal is then passed to a synchroniser clocked at the unknown
frequency.
The output transitions of the synchroniser are time stamped whilst an
auxiliary counter counts the number of periods of the unknown frequency
between these transitions.
The counters dividers and synchronisers are best suited to
implementation in an FPGA together with the coarse time stamping.
A set of time interval interpolators are used to measure the delay from
the event to the next reference clock reference edge.
For higher frequencies a prescaler that divides the input signal
frequency down to a frequency within the range of the main counter
system implemented within the FPGA is required.
Input signal conditioning circuitry is also required to produce a logic
level output for the main counter system.
A differential signal (eg LVDS or PECL) should be used to convey high
frequency signals between such daughter boards and the main counter.
A processor of some kind to preprocess and format the data may also be
required.
The main board should contain the FPGA, communications processor and
(isolated?) comms interface to a PC
Daughter boards would consist of
-
Prescalers
-
Fine time interpolators (eg TAC)
-
Input signal conditioning
All of this should easily fit into a 1/2 width 2U sized enclosure.
Minimal communication with daughter boards other than setting input
attenuators, gain and prescaler divisors should be required.
A simple means of determining such daughter card capabilities and
presence may also be desirable.
The addition of serial EEPROM or equivalent may also be useful.
Timestamp noise on the order of 3-10ps should be easy to achieve
provided that adequate layout techniques (eg ground plane an 4+ layer
boards where required) are used.
Bruce
Time for me to jump in on the Form Factor...
How about something like this: http://www.blacet.com/
It's the smaller of the modular synths but Blacet can provide the racks and
a VERY quiet power supply (+/- 15V). The benefit to this is, the module can
be as wide as it needs to be... we can use PCB material or aluminum for RF
shielding, and it all fits into a nice rackmount enclosure. Think SKB case
and we're good to go. "Modular" had been around for a long time. This is
"one" example of how to make it work. MOOG had another form factor (larger
but same concept). Why not focus on "height" first... (width can always be
accommodated) and features?
I have many unbuilt PICTIC II's and now I'm questioning why as it seems the
project went dead pretty quick as there hasn't been much discussion about
it. I really thought there would be more (same with the "Small DMTD
project").
Another project when there is already the PICTIC II and the Small DMTD
project? Really?
But, my suggestion for a Form Factor is anything that we can come up with
a common chassis (like the Blacet design) and have a place to openly discuss
the project without it getting lost in the NOISE that has become so common
lately on this list.
Comms onthe text below: I would eliminate the "moterboard" completely
and incorporate it's function inside module that is built to the same form
factor as the modules that you have have plugged into the motherboard.
Big advantage is (1) mechanically much simpler and (2) yu can actually
change out the "motherboard". (3) Every part of the system looks like
every other part of the system(4) you do noot need to guess the maximum
number of daughter cards, the bus is now a cable and not a PCB.
At this point in time, I think we should stick to system level issues and not
get into internals of a "module". But we do need a working list of possable
modules. People have proposed at least these
- A "core" timer modula like PICTIC but with better specs
- signal conditioning like trigger, attenuator...
- An interface module. There might be several different kinds of these.
one might have USB to a computer one might allow use of the counter
stand-alone with no computer, we'd say this module interfaces to a human.)
I can think of 50 kinds of modules some one might want but right now
the goal is to define what a module should look like on the outside
mechanically and electrically.
The mechanical part turned out to be hard. It has to be something someone
can either buy cheap off the shelf or build using common tools at home.
Then when you think that a basic system might have one two modules the
"backplane" could easy be a jumper cable.
I don't know if a spectrum analyzer is out of scope. I'm sure once someone
sees an "Open Counter" that has a good signal conditioner module and a good
interface module and a basic "pictic like" core counter they will think. "Gosh
I can build a module with a A/D chip and a computer and I'd have an SA for
under $200.
I hope to be surprised at the modules people build in the future
About an FPGA or a CPU. First off if you have an FPGA you can put a CPU
inside of it. Some "soft CPUs" don't take more than a fraction of the gates.
There are some free "Soft ARM" designs and even soft SPARC and
and 8051. If you REALLY need power Intel has an Atom CPU and an
FPGA on the same chip.
That said, I hope we do not need this. The software is not
something you finish in a few months.
Again, my thinking. Main board has 2, possibly 4 input daughtercard
connectors. Internal interconnect pinout is well defined, though, as I
said earlier, some pins may be 'designated for future use' and simply
run to spare pins on a microcontroller or FPGA.
It might make sense to put an ARM next to the FPGA. You can get a lot of CPU
for $10-20.
ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for
complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO
support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a
cost to complexity.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
El 23/12/2010 05:24, Bob Bownes escribió:
ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for
complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO
support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a
cost to complexity.
If you are not planifying to use an embedded operating system like
uClinux or embedded linux, no need for external RAM or ROM. There are
lot of ARMs from several manufacturers with 256kB flash and 64kB RAM or
more for <$20, with a nice set of peripherals (USB, UARTs, CAN, even
Ethernet without the need of an external phy). Software tools can range
from free (GCC + eclipse) to quite expensive (IAR).
If you plan to use an embedded operating system, then more RAM, more ROM...
We've an embedded processor board that includes a Blackfin, 16 or 32MB
flash, 32 or 64MB RAM and a 250,000 gate FPGA, and belive me, it is not
so expensive (and if it would be interesting for a project like this, we
could try to make a series with special time-nuts price)
http://www.hvsistemas.com/en/prod/H8606.html
Regards,
Javier
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
I hadn't considered the possibility of using an embedded processor board.
That is an interesting possibility. The ability to run linux on it, as well
as have DSP and FPGA in hand would certainly up the ante a bit. A 400 mhz
DSP and 25Mhz CPU would be more than enough processing power.
Just thinking out loud here, I would imagine a main board that such a
processor plugs into with locations to plug in input modules, A/D
converters, a serial level converter (if there isn't one on the board), and
a front 'control' panel. The main board holds not much more than connectors
and traces to get signals from those modules to the processor board and/or
the A/D boards.
Hmmm.
Bob
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Javier Herrero jherrero@hvsistemas.eswrote:
El 23/12/2010 05:24, Bob Bownes escribió:
ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for
complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO
support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a
cost to complexity.
If you are not planifying to use an embedded operating system like
uClinux or embedded linux, no need for external RAM or ROM. There are lot of
ARMs from several manufacturers with 256kB flash and 64kB RAM or more for
<$20, with a nice set of peripherals (USB, UARTs, CAN, even Ethernet without
the need of an external phy). Software tools can range from free (GCC +
eclipse) to quite expensive (IAR).
If you plan to use an embedded operating system, then more RAM, more ROM...
We've an embedded processor board that includes a Blackfin, 16 or 32MB
flash, 32 or 64MB RAM and a 250,000 gate FPGA, and belive me, it is not so
expensive (and if it would be interesting for a project like this, we could
try to make a series with special time-nuts price)
http://www.hvsistemas.com/en/prod/H8606.html
Regards,
Javier
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
El 23/12/2010 16:11, Bob Bownes escribió:
I hadn't considered the possibility of using an embedded processor board.
That is an interesting possibility. The ability to run linux on it, as well
as have DSP and FPGA in hand would certainly up the ante a bit. A 400 mhz
DSP and 25Mhz CPU would be more than enough processing power.
It is only a 400MHz DSP/RISC (no additional processor). The Blackfin is
a DSP with good general purpose processor characteristics. The 400MHz
clock is internally derived from a 25MHz crystal.
Just thinking out loud here, I would imagine a main board that such a
processor plugs into with locations to plug in input modules, A/D
converters, a serial level converter (if there isn't one on the board), and
a front 'control' panel. The main board holds not much more than connectors
and traces to get signals from those modules to the processor board and/or
the A/D boards.
The front control panel could be simply a touch-screen. I've used this
board with a 7" 800x480 TFTs and with 2.83" 320x240 OLED displays, both
with TPs.
Best regards,
Javier
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
Bob,
That is what I'm thinking also but when you say the main board has
nothing on it but a few connectors then why have a main board?
All the functions of the main board can be placed in a plug-in that is
easy to change as technology moves. Rather then a main board you have
just a cable, maybe a ribbon cable for control and status and coax for
any analog signals.
The problem with a backplan is that they are physically very hard to
build. You need a card cadge of some kind. I think we want this to
be build-able by amateurs at home. If you use a "flexible backplane"
(aka, "cable") then the mechanical design is very easy, you could
screw the cards down to a bread board or mount them ina 1U rack
chasis, put them in a diacast Hammond box or whatever. But a ridgid
backplan would dictate only one mechanical design
The "soft backplane can evolve. Right now people want a "counter" and
that application does not need any high speed data on the bus. Even
100Kbps is overkill. When you start taking about spectrum analyzers
then you need high speed data interconnects and we can add that when
the time comes. You can't do that if the bus in a PCB with
connectors, you are stuck with what you have so you end up running
card to card cable jumpers. May as well just start with the jumpers
from the beginning.
There are some really great embedded processors out. The problem is
software. If you pick some "exotic" processor then you will be the
only one to write software for it. To avoid that I'd pick one that
"most" people already know. The bottleneck in these projects is always
software and you should design hardware to minimize that problem even
if it adds $20 to the cost.
Moving the processor into a "plug in" module seems pointless to some
people who already own a PC but if you are working with high speed
data then you find interfacing that data to a desktop PC is not easy
so if simply place the PC inside your project then "Poof" the
interface problem is gone. The HPSDR project is a good example. They
had to use a card with a FPGA on it to pre-process data to the point
where it would fit down the bandwidth of a USB cable. Cost for that
is a couple hundred dollars and a year of engineering but, had they
simply placed the computer inside the box there would be no need for
high speed box-to-PC link. Years ago this would have been expensive
but today powerful CPU that can run Linux or even Windows costs very
little
That said the basic counter project should NOT need such a powerful
CPU. A little 8-bit uP with 14 pins should be enough.
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Bob Bownes bownes@gmail.com wrote:
Just thinking out loud here, I would imagine a main board that such a
processor plugs into with locations to plug in input modules, A/D
converters, a serial level converter (if there isn't one on the board), and
a front 'control' panel. The main board holds not much more than connectors
and traces to get signals from those modules to the processor board and/or
the A/D boards.
Hmmm.
Bob
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
El 23/12/2010 19:08, Chris Albertson escribió:
There are some really great embedded processors out. The problem is
software. If you pick some "exotic" processor then you will be the
only one to write software for it. To avoid that I'd pick one that
"most" people already know. The bottleneck in these projects is always
software and you should design hardware to minimize that problem even
if it adds $20 to the cost.
No need to pick an exotic one, and software is not a great bottleneck.
If you write bare-metal applications, you can done all in C (I've done a
lot with ARM and never wrote a line in assembler for it). Also, lots of
free tools (for ARM, for AVR, etc.). If you use a processor running an
embedded OS like uClinux, you have not to bother to write the low level
software (the one that interacts directly with the h/w) except if you
need to write a driver for some peripheral, and you get full networking
support, solid state disk support and lots more. But you need more ROM
and more RAM (quite a bit more).
That said the basic counter project should NOT need such a powerful
CPU. A little 8-bit uP with 14 pins should be enough.
When you have a decent ARM for <$10, and a great ARM for <$20 with USB,
100Mbps Ethernet including phy, CAN, I2C, SPI, SSI, lots of timers,
etc... and a 32-bit core running at 50 or 80MHz, you tend to forget
anything like an 8-bit PIC (I'm talking about one-off projects or small
series - for large series, hardware cost is ever more important - and
PICs are not unexpensive except for the very small ones, either. In the
first cases, only one hour in software development that you can save
using a more powerful processor rentabilizes it)
And for time nuts, the LM3S9B96 even has IEEE-1588 support ;)
Development kits for the LM3S9B9x are in the order of $100 and looks
very nice even for including 'as is' in a one-off project (not in a
series - long term delivery is never guaranteed). Check Mouser (for
example) for them.
Regards,
Javier
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
Gosh, Javier, I went to your website, and found one of my favorite peeves:
it says "low cost" without a hint of the price. I've found that this
combination usually means "way out of my price class" or, "if you have to
ask, it's too high", or "low cost for a big company with a research
budget".
Sorry, just my prejudices showing.
Don
Javier Herrero
El 23/12/2010 05:24, Bob Bownes escribió:
ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for
complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO
support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a
cost to complexity.
If you are not planifying to use an embedded operating system like
uClinux or embedded linux, no need for external RAM or ROM. There are
lot of ARMs from several manufacturers with 256kB flash and 64kB RAM or
more for <$20, with a nice set of peripherals (USB, UARTs, CAN, even
Ethernet without the need of an external phy). Software tools can range
from free (GCC + eclipse) to quite expensive (IAR).
If you plan to use an embedded operating system, then more RAM, more
ROM...
We've an embedded processor board that includes a Blackfin, 16 or 32MB
flash, 32 or 64MB RAM and a 250,000 gate FPGA, and belive me, it is not
so expensive (and if it would be interesting for a project like this, we
could try to make a series with special time-nuts price)
http://www.hvsistemas.com/en/prod/H8606.html
Regards,
Javier
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell
Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com
Simply ask ;)
Seriously, I think that this kind of things are not too much money, like
for example the ADSP-BF537 Stamp from Analog Devices
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=ADZS-BF537-STAMP-ND
We are not building this one in large quantities, but we've used it as
an starting point for several projects (see the space projects section
on my web... all of them have one or more inside ;) )
Do you think that the STAMP from ADI is too expensive? :)
Regards,
Javier
El 23/12/2010 21:52, Don Latham escribió:
Gosh, Javier, I went to your website, and found one of my favorite peeves:
it says "low cost" without a hint of the price. I've found that this
combination usually means "way out of my price class" or, "if you have to
ask, it's too high", or "low cost for a big company with a research
budget".
Sorry, just my prejudices showing.
Don
Javier Herrero
El 23/12/2010 05:24, Bob Bownes escribió:
ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for
complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO
support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a
cost to complexity.
If you are not planifying to use an embedded operating system like
uClinux or embedded linux, no need for external RAM or ROM. There are
lot of ARMs from several manufacturers with 256kB flash and 64kB RAM or
more for<$20, with a nice set of peripherals (USB, UARTs, CAN, even
Ethernet without the need of an external phy). Software tools can range
from free (GCC + eclipse) to quite expensive (IAR).
If you plan to use an embedded operating system, then more RAM, more
ROM...
We've an embedded processor board that includes a Blackfin, 16 or 32MB
flash, 32 or 64MB RAM and a 250,000 gate FPGA, and belive me, it is not
so expensive (and if it would be interesting for a project like this, we
could try to make a series with special time-nuts price)
http://www.hvsistemas.com/en/prod/H8606.html
Regards,
Javier
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
I think the ADSP-stamp is about $100 overpriced at least. there are boards
available with more capability for less. There is an old saying that noone
was ever fired for buying IBM, maybe that's why AD charges what they do.
meantime, microchip is laughing all the way to the bank...
That said, your board is about right if that is the price for the
development system. I do appreciate it was started for your own use.
Certainly the fpga and blackfin will do the job along with some good front
end electronics!
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Don
Javier Herrero
Simply ask ;)
Seriously, I think that this kind of things are not too much money, like
for example the ADSP-BF537 Stamp from Analog Devices
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=ADZS-BF537-STAMP-ND
We are not building this one in large quantities, but we've used it as
an starting point for several projects (see the space projects section
on my web... all of them have one or more inside ;) )
Do you think that the STAMP from ADI is too expensive? :)
Regards,
Javier
El 23/12/2010 21:52, Don Latham escribió:
Gosh, Javier, I went to your website, and found one of my favorite
peeves:
it says "low cost" without a hint of the price. I've found that this
combination usually means "way out of my price class" or, "if you have
to
ask, it's too high", or "low cost for a big company with a research
budget".
Sorry, just my prejudices showing.
Don
Javier Herrero
El 23/12/2010 05:24, Bob Bownes escribió:
ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for
complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO
support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a
cost to complexity.
If you are not planifying to use an embedded operating system like
uClinux or embedded linux, no need for external RAM or ROM. There are
lot of ARMs from several manufacturers with 256kB flash and 64kB RAM or
more for<$20, with a nice set of peripherals (USB, UARTs, CAN, even
Ethernet without the need of an external phy). Software tools can range
from free (GCC + eclipse) to quite expensive (IAR).
If you plan to use an embedded operating system, then more RAM, more
ROM...
We've an embedded processor board that includes a Blackfin, 16 or 32MB
flash, 32 or 64MB RAM and a 250,000 gate FPGA, and belive me, it is not
so expensive (and if it would be interesting for a project like this,
we
could try to make a series with special time-nuts price)
http://www.hvsistemas.com/en/prod/H8606.html
Regards,
Javier
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL:
jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336
806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336
792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB:
http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell
Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com
I suppose that it all depends on the production quantity :) Well, the
ADSP-BF537 EZKIT is quite more expensive and does not provides too muchs
not included in the STAM... and if you like to see thing really
expensive, this is an example:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=544-2605-ND
Merry Christmas and happy new year to all of you!
Best regards,
Javier
El 24/12/2010 01:35, Don Latham escribió:
I think the ADSP-stamp is about $100 overpriced at least. there are boards
available with more capability for less. There is an old saying that noone
was ever fired for buying IBM, maybe that's why AD charges what they do.
meantime, microchip is laughing all the way to the bank...
That said, your board is about right if that is the price for the
development system. I do appreciate it was started for your own use.
Certainly the fpga and blackfin will do the job along with some good front
end electronics!
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Don
Javier Herrero
Simply ask ;)
Seriously, I think that this kind of things are not too much money, like
for example the ADSP-BF537 Stamp from Analog Devices
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=ADZS-BF537-STAMP-ND
We are not building this one in large quantities, but we've used it as
an starting point for several projects (see the space projects section
on my web... all of them have one or more inside ;) )
Do you think that the STAMP from ADI is too expensive? :)
Regards,
Javier
El 23/12/2010 21:52, Don Latham escribió:
Gosh, Javier, I went to your website, and found one of my favorite
peeves:
it says "low cost" without a hint of the price. I've found that this
combination usually means "way out of my price class" or, "if you have
to
ask, it's too high", or "low cost for a big company with a research
budget".
Sorry, just my prejudices showing.
Don
Javier Herrero
El 23/12/2010 05:24, Bob Bownes escribió:
ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for
complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO
support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a
cost to complexity.
If you are not planifying to use an embedded operating system like
uClinux or embedded linux, no need for external RAM or ROM. There are
lot of ARMs from several manufacturers with 256kB flash and 64kB RAM or
more for<$20, with a nice set of peripherals (USB, UARTs, CAN, even
Ethernet without the need of an external phy). Software tools can range
from free (GCC + eclipse) to quite expensive (IAR).
If you plan to use an embedded operating system, then more RAM, more
ROM...
We've an embedded processor board that includes a Blackfin, 16 or 32MB
flash, 32 or 64MB RAM and a 250,000 gate FPGA, and belive me, it is not
so expensive (and if it would be interesting for a project like this,
we
could try to make a series with special time-nuts price)
http://www.hvsistemas.com/en/prod/H8606.html
Regards,
Javier
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL:
jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336
806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336
792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB:
http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
yikes! only for us government contractors.
Don
Javier Herrero
I suppose that it all depends on the production quantity :) Well, the
ADSP-BF537 EZKIT is quite more expensive and does not provides too muchs
not included in the STAM... and if you like to see thing really
expensive, this is an example:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=544-2605-ND
Merry Christmas and happy new year to all of you!
Best regards,
Javier
El 24/12/2010 01:35, Don Latham escribió:
I think the ADSP-stamp is about $100 overpriced at least. there are
boards
available with more capability for less. There is an old saying that
noone
was ever fired for buying IBM, maybe that's why AD charges what they do.
meantime, microchip is laughing all the way to the bank...
That said, your board is about right if that is the price for the
development system. I do appreciate it was started for your own use.
Certainly the fpga and blackfin will do the job along with some good
front
end electronics!
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Don
Javier Herrero
Simply ask ;)
Seriously, I think that this kind of things are not too much money,
like
for example the ADSP-BF537 Stamp from Analog Devices
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=ADZS-BF537-STAMP-ND
We are not building this one in large quantities, but we've used it as
an starting point for several projects (see the space projects section
on my web... all of them have one or more inside ;) )
Do you think that the STAMP from ADI is too expensive? :)
Regards,
Javier
El 23/12/2010 21:52, Don Latham escribió:
Gosh, Javier, I went to your website, and found one of my favorite
peeves:
it says "low cost" without a hint of the price. I've found that this
combination usually means "way out of my price class" or, "if you have
to
ask, it's too high", or "low cost for a big company with a research
budget".
Sorry, just my prejudices showing.
Don
Javier Herrero
El 23/12/2010 05:24, Bob Bownes escribió:
ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost
for
complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO
support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at
a
cost to complexity.
If you are not planifying to use an embedded operating system like
uClinux or embedded linux, no need for external RAM or ROM. There are
lot of ARMs from several manufacturers with 256kB flash and 64kB RAM
or
more for<$20, with a nice set of peripherals (USB, UARTs, CAN, even
Ethernet without the need of an external phy). Software tools can
range
from free (GCC + eclipse) to quite expensive (IAR).
If you plan to use an embedded operating system, then more RAM, more
ROM...
We've an embedded processor board that includes a Blackfin, 16 or
32MB
flash, 32 or 64MB RAM and a 250,000 gate FPGA, and belive me, it is
not
so expensive (and if it would be interesting for a project like this,
we
could try to make a series with special time-nuts price)
http://www.hvsistemas.com/en/prod/H8606.html
Regards,
Javier
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL:
jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336
806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336
792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB:
http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL:
jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336
806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336
792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB:
http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell
Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com