I guess it all depends on location and  boat type... here in south florida,
most if not all boat owners leave the A/C on at all times.Cooking in a full
size galley with an electric stove doesn't increase risk of fires..  and the
number of guests is also questionable...  Many weekend boaters go out with
guests too...

on the other hand, it's a proven fact that most boat sinkings occur at the
dock and usually involve unattended / neglected vessels...

one thing that may affect how some insurers feel about liveabord is the fact
that many rarely take their boat out. as such, these vessels are less likely
to be maintained as well as they shoudl be ...

pascal
miami, fl
1970 hatteras 53 MY

----- Original Message ----- >

First of all I know nothing about insurance.

But, to quote a well known prophet, "I ain't fallin for no banana in the
tailpipe!"

I think you are just guessing Al, like the rest of us, about the liability
and exposure being greater for live aboards.  I disagree that live aboards
have more guests aboard than the occasional boater that brings 15 guests on
a 25' boat every weekend...I am guessing here too.....

I think the insurance companies have no evidence of live aboards making more
or higher claims than any other group and suggest that when the insurance
companies find a situation that is out of the norm they take the opportunity
to stick it to you!
The professional way to say that at the meeting is "Lets cover our A**".

I read earlier posts that stated marine insurance is not regulated (?) and I
assume that means that the cost to provide coverage is not spread over the
whole base as in other coverage's..but that individual coverage is based on
situations...is that a true statement?
If so where is the proof?

When someone provides the proof with the details by page and paragraph, I
will believe it.

I believe that live aboard costs are higher because of increased coverage
for personal property...that is an additional coverage.

Final statement...I know nothing about insurance.

Bob Clinkenbeard
Custom 41' Trawler
"Bobbin Along"
http://www.dreamwater.org/captainbob/

First, I know nothing about insurance.

The view of live aboards is so distorted it is disgusting to me....sorry for
the personal insight.

You are assuming that everyone has insurance and becomes part of the
statistics......

I am guessing that the live aboard that does not take care of his boat is
not insured.

Leaving the AC on or cooking in a small galley is not proof of higher
risk....another guess..live aboards cook onboard less and fire related
claims are usually at the fuel dock.

As far as live aboards rarely take the boat out, I guess that some don't.
But I am sure that the ones paying high insurance costs to live aboard their
boat, that have to maintain it for insurance surveys, and therefore have the
money and time to cruise.....do just that.
Join the live aboard list at  The Live-Aboard List : send a "subscribe" or
"unsubscribe" request in body of message to:
live-aboard-request@crux.astro.utoronto.ca and ask them about it.

I doubt that most live aboards let their home deteriorate to the point of
being a fire hazard or artificial reef.

Finally, I know nothing about insurance.

Bob Clinkenbeard
Custom 41' Trawler
"Bobbin Along"
http://www.dreamwater.org/captainbob/

bob I agree with you. My boat  is a boat and as such is kept in sea worthy
condition; even though I don't have time to go on an enxtended cruises, it
never stays at the dock more than 5 or 6 days in a row.

I mentioned "static" liveaboards based on what I see in my marina...  there
are a number of live aboards  that I have never seen leaving their slip in
the past year.  It doens't take much walking down the dock to figure out
which boat woudl require a few hours before they can leave...

I am on the liveaboard list and acutally wondered aboutthat a few months
ago, replies were 50/50 .. some go out regullrly or live abaord cruising,
others don't leave the dock or mooring.

Re. most fires starting with shore power inlet, it's true... but when
someone is aboard, it can be caught in time

pascal
miami, fl
1970 hatteras 53my

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Clinkenbeard" captainbobc@comcast.net
To: "Trawlers & Trawlering List" trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 10:19 AM
Subject: T&T: RE: Insurance of liveaboards

florida,

with

the

for

their

the

or

trawlers-and-trawlering-request@lists.samurai.com

the message.

LOGIC:
Remember that the key here is to use the live aboards that are insured as
the statistic and not include the ones that are not insured.
I have seen many boats that are floating and being lived aboard, but do not
qualify as transportation and would not pass an insurance survey.  These
boats are not to be used to rate us for insurance.

Bob Clinkenbeard
Custom 41' Trawler
"Bobbin Along"
http://www.dreamwater.org/captainbob/

In my opinion this liveaboard issue is becoming bogged down in minutia,
assumptions, and simply different opinions (maybe somewhat not unlike
the discussion of raw water hoses).

First of all I can't imagine that any insurance underwriter has any
substantial loss information regarding liveaboards vs. other boaters.
No loss info means no ability to develop a rate.

Sometimes of course, a carrier may THINK a certain aspect has more risk,
and even without loss data might decide exclude coverage, but that
doesn't make the decision defensible with any facts.  It's just what
they want to do.  The reverse is also true BTW, in that a carrier may
just a easily toss in (or not exclude) a coverage for what they see as
an incidental exposure.  To follow that a little further, if it turns
out that many losses do develop in an unexpected area, the carrier may
find that coverage uninsurable, and exclude that kind of exposure (I
think a good example of this would be "mold" as respects homeowners
policies.  The losses are very large and unpredictable, and are now
pretty much excluded on most policies.)

As I said earlier, BoatUS doesn't even keep track of who lives aboard
and who doesn't. They insure recreational boat owners whether or not
they live aboard, (or where they boat for that matter).  While you need
policy extensions for international waters, their territory is generally
quite broad and unrestrictive. (My policy is for "U.S. Pacific Coastal
Waters" (between Cape Scott, Vancouver Island, and Point Banda, Mexico)

On the liveaboard subject, the only missing piece in the BoatUS policy
may be the lack of Personal (non-boating) Liability.  (BTW this issue is
now being reconsidered by BoatUS and may in fact change - not
necessarily soon, as these things move slowly.)

You should also know that liability claims  represent a very small
portion of claims at BoatUS, and one would expect that Personal
Liability claims would represent an even a much smaller percentage of
total loss dollars.  If it weren't for the potential blurring of
Personal Liability with Business Liability for those who live on and
work out of their boat, I could see how one might seriously consider not
insuring Personal Liability, or buying an Umbrella with a retention for
that small uninsured exposure.

Further, it's absurd to think that one would loose coverage for not
reporting the fact that they live aboard if the carrier doesn't ask that
specific question.  Keep in mind that we're talking about "recreational"
boating here, not commercial vessels.  You might perhaps not find
coverage if you failed to mention that your boat has sunk twice in the
past month, or that you are a busy, little liveaboard drug dealer, but
it's not generally up to the policyholder to figure out what aspects of
his or her lifestyle poses greater risk.  It is of course the
responsibility of the policyholder not to lie.

Listen, if you have an unusual situation (you decide what that means),
you perhaps need special attention, but for most of us the readily
available programs are fine.  I may sound like a BoatUS salesman, but
I'm not.  I've just found them simply to be approachable and easy to
deal with in terms of both underwriting and claims.  I also think they
have good prices (haven't surveyed a bunch of others however), but most
important they have very good service.  They insure boats below $1.5
million in value, so I had no problem falling into that category.

Also, before you start comparing prices, be aware the boat value and
location tend to be the factors influencing pricing.  So the location
and the boat value need to be very close for a good comparison.  On the
subject of boat value, on my last two boats I was able to convince the
company that my boat was really worth more than I actually paid for it.
I had to support my claim, but I believe that represents pretty
significant flexibility.

Phil de l'Etoile
37' Lord Nelson Victory Tug
San Francisco Bay Area

Bob Clinkenbeard wrote:

We hold all the liability.This is all a big change in the insurance.
Everyone wants to be covered by everyone else.
I live in a waterfront property.  ( The community managed to go through a
back door in 1999, annexing the original non-riparian properties to those
they had not applied for previously)
All owners of waterfronts, maintain their own bulkheads, piers, pay the
taxes, and their insurance. We were all sent certified letters stating  we
did not own the waters edge, the community did. The letter went on to say;
we hold all the liability, must pay the taxes and they have the right to
prevent us from use of our piers, or may even commandeer or remove them as
they see fit.
Sounds like a common jingle to me.
Nan
Bear Boat 49' DeFever - on a big learning curve from a 22' Grady White in
the Chesapeake Bay
Little Magothy River, MD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Clinkenbeard" captainbobc@comcast.net
To: "Trawlers & Trawlering List" trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 9:59 AM
Subject: T&T: RE: Insurance of liveaboards