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TWL: Complexity and expense in power voyagers

G
georgs@trawlerworld.com
Fri, Nov 30, 2001 10:41 AM

Good morning!

My reports from the circumnavigating Nordhavn 40 generated several comments
about the complexity  of the boat, and how much it costs, most eloquently
by Doug Barnard of the Iron Lotus project.

There is no question the Nordhavn is not a simple boat and that it costs a
great deal of money, but complexity and expense are relative, akin to
beauty being in the eye of the holder.

<<If Georgs was bemoaning the complexity of the Nordhavn and
all of the electronics, do you think that he'd be invited the next time that
either of these companies had a promotional outing?>>

Let me say again: There is no question the Nordhavn is not a simple boat
and that it costs a great deal of money. Me saying so won't have any
reaction at Pacific Asian Enterprises because no one, let alone PAE, claims
they build basic boats on the cheap.

<<I can read the headlines
now: "Give me an old hand-made Diesel Duck, and a $100 GPS, and I'll show
those sissies what passagemaking is all about!">>

That is a nice, romantic notion, Doug, one that captures my imagination
too. In fact, before I got going with Trawler World, Trawler Fest et al, I
was one of the biggest promoters of George Buehler's Diesel Duck design,
and aimed to get into boatbuilding by offering the Duck as a motor-away or
completed custom boat. You can see my ad as Cape Horn Marine in the first
edition of PassageMaker Magazine in 1996.

Despite my appreciation for Nordhavn and other makes, I personally am still
enamored with the concept of going small, simple and hopefully
inexpensively, as witnessed by the Buster design that Michael Kasten has
begun to develop for me. For a look-see, go
http://www.kastenmarine.com/buster30.htm.

<<This trip is great in that it shows that using the proper gear on a showroom-floor boat can take you anywhere that you want to go.>>

You bet! That's already been proven with the Nordhavn 46 and is now being
demonstrated with the smaller boat too.

<<The bad part is that it implies you need a 1/2 million dollar trawler to
do it.>>

Not at all, You might wish infer that to start a debate, but it's not true.
You can get around the world under power for less money in the 40-foot
class, but so far, it has been demonstrated only three times that I know
of, twice by David Scott Cowper with the 42-foot Mabel E. Holland and once
by Eilco Kasemier with the 40-foot Bylgia II.

The fact of the matter is that in the trawler marketplace the "complex and
expensive" Nordhavns are selling well while hardly anyone is building the
bargain-basement Diesel Ducks.

George Buehler's Diesel Duck design first came to prominence when Jim
Leishman included and praised it in the current edition of Voyaging Under
Power which came out in 1994. How many Ducks have been launched in the
seven years since then? By comparison, you must admit the number of
Norhavns launched in that same time frame is remarkable. Three dozen--that
is 36 boats--of the 40-foot model alone have been launched since it was
introduced two and a half years ago.

The market craves quality, safety, creature comforts and electronics
galore, and is willing and able to pay, regardless of how much you and I
might pine for simplicity and bemoan our lack of bucks.

--Georgs

Good morning! My reports from the circumnavigating Nordhavn 40 generated several comments about the complexity of the boat, and how much it costs, most eloquently by Doug Barnard of the Iron Lotus project. There is no question the Nordhavn is not a simple boat and that it costs a great deal of money, but complexity and expense are relative, akin to beauty being in the eye of the holder. <<If Georgs was bemoaning the complexity of the Nordhavn and all of the electronics, do you think that he'd be invited the next time that either of these companies had a promotional outing?>> Let me say again: There is no question the Nordhavn is not a simple boat and that it costs a great deal of money. Me saying so won't have any reaction at Pacific Asian Enterprises because no one, let alone PAE, claims they build basic boats on the cheap. <<I can read the headlines now: "Give me an old hand-made Diesel Duck, and a $100 GPS, and I'll show those sissies what passagemaking is all about!">> That is a nice, romantic notion, Doug, one that captures my imagination too. In fact, before I got going with Trawler World, Trawler Fest et al, I was one of the biggest promoters of George Buehler's Diesel Duck design, and aimed to get into boatbuilding by offering the Duck as a motor-away or completed custom boat. You can see my ad as Cape Horn Marine in the first edition of PassageMaker Magazine in 1996. Despite my appreciation for Nordhavn and other makes, I personally am still enamored with the concept of going small, simple and hopefully inexpensively, as witnessed by the Buster design that Michael Kasten has begun to develop for me. For a look-see, go <http://www.kastenmarine.com/buster30.htm>. <<This trip is great in that it shows that using the proper gear on a showroom-floor boat can take you anywhere that you want to go.>> You bet! That's already been proven with the Nordhavn 46 and is now being demonstrated with the smaller boat too. <<The bad part is that it implies you need a 1/2 million dollar trawler to do it.>> Not at all, You might wish infer that to start a debate, but it's not true. You can get around the world under power for less money in the 40-foot class, but so far, it has been demonstrated only three times that I know of, twice by David Scott Cowper with the 42-foot Mabel E. Holland and once by Eilco Kasemier with the 40-foot Bylgia II. The fact of the matter is that in the trawler marketplace the "complex and expensive" Nordhavns are selling well while hardly anyone is building the bargain-basement Diesel Ducks. George Buehler's Diesel Duck design first came to prominence when Jim Leishman included and praised it in the current edition of Voyaging Under Power which came out in 1994. How many Ducks have been launched in the seven years since then? By comparison, you must admit the number of Norhavns launched in that same time frame is remarkable. Three dozen--that is 36 boats--of the 40-foot model alone have been launched since it was introduced two and a half years ago. The market craves quality, safety, creature comforts and electronics galore, and is willing and able to pay, regardless of how much you and I might pine for simplicity and bemoan our lack of bucks. --Georgs
RP
Richter-Pooh@rocketmail.com
Fri, Nov 30, 2001 4:05 PM

<<The fact of the matter is that in the trawler
marketplace the "complex and
expensive" Nordhavns are selling well while hardly
anyone is building the
bargain-basement Diesel Ducks.

The market craves quality, safety, creature comforts
and electronics
galore, and is willing and able to pay, regardless of
how much you and I
might pine for simplicity and bemoan our lack of
bucks.>>

"The market" includes both new and used boats, which I
think explains the low demand for new
"bargain-basement" boats, like the Diesel Duck.  Most
of us in the "bargain-basement" segment of the market
find our needs are best met in the used marketplace,
where we can get more boat for the money.  Those in
the "half-a-mil-and-up" segment of the market tend to
want it all, including all the creature comforts they
have at home.

Mark Richter, Winnie the Pooh
46' bargain-basement troller yacht
(formerly 1977 Heritage West Indies 46 ketch)


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<<The fact of the matter is that in the trawler marketplace the "complex and expensive" Nordhavns are selling well while hardly anyone is building the bargain-basement Diesel Ducks. The market craves quality, safety, creature comforts and electronics galore, and is willing and able to pay, regardless of how much you and I might pine for simplicity and bemoan our lack of bucks.>> "The market" includes both new and used boats, which I think explains the low demand for new "bargain-basement" boats, like the Diesel Duck. Most of us in the "bargain-basement" segment of the market find our needs are best met in the used marketplace, where we can get more boat for the money. Those in the "half-a-mil-and-up" segment of the market tend to want it all, including all the creature comforts they have at home. Mark Richter, Winnie the Pooh 46' bargain-basement troller yacht (formerly 1977 Heritage West Indies 46 ketch) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
D
dbarnard@virtualacreage.com
Mon, Dec 3, 2001 2:52 AM

[mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com]On Behalf Of Georgs
Kolesnikovs

<snip>

The market craves quality, safety, creature comforts and electronics
galore, and is willing and able to pay, regardless of how much you and I
might pine for simplicity and bemoan our lack of bucks.

Well put! My grapes must have been particularly sour the day I wrote that. I
think that a good parallel is the automotive industry; if we didn't
consistently demonstrate that we wanted cool-looking frou-frou on our cars,
we could get $10K cars that were quite serviceable.

The sad part is that for someone of limited means to have the majority of
the marketplace discourage them. If it wasn't for the influence of this
List, and writers like George Buehler, I wouldn't even be contemplating
doing what I'm doing. We need to get the regular folks out and about!

I'd much rather hang out with the Gilligans than the Thurston Howells!


Doug Barnard
currently in design phase of
"Iron Lotus"
48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler

> [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com]On Behalf Of Georgs > Kolesnikovs <snip> > The market craves quality, safety, creature comforts and electronics > galore, and is willing and able to pay, regardless of how much you and I > might pine for simplicity and bemoan our lack of bucks. Well put! My grapes must have been particularly sour the day I wrote that. I think that a good parallel is the automotive industry; if we didn't consistently demonstrate that we wanted cool-looking frou-frou on our cars, we could get $10K cars that were quite serviceable. The sad part is that for someone of limited means to have the majority of the marketplace discourage them. If it wasn't for the influence of this List, and writers like George Buehler, I wouldn't even be contemplating doing what I'm doing. We need to get the regular folks out and about! I'd much rather hang out with the Gilligans than the Thurston Howells! ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler