Empathy List Archives

GH

Gerhard Hoffmann

Wed, Feb 26, 2020 12:42 AM

I had a Morion MV89A that would stop oscillating when Vtune was more
than +600 mV.

So I cut it open to recover at least the crystal, for own experiments.

Pics are there:

<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/49585174873/in/album-72157662535945536/
>

and then following the right arrow.

To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put
it on an

R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance

as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one
another 90 KHz

higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.

But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a
fundamental crystal?

Is that common?

I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder

station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C

inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz
resonance vs. temp.

I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz
bandwidth

is close to eternal.

Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger
with SC-cuts

than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make
a board

for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook.

BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that
does not mean

that the ZVB needs service.

cheers, Gerhard

I had a Morion MV89A that would stop oscillating when Vtune was more than +600 mV. So I cut it open to recover at least the crystal, for own experiments. Pics are there: < https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/49585174873/in/album-72157662535945536/ > and then following the right arrow. To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut. But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal? Is that common? I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp. I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth is close to eternal. Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook. BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean that the ZVB needs service. cheers, Gerhard

BK

Bob kb8tq

Wed, Feb 26, 2020 12:50 AM

Hi

There certainly are fundamental SC’s out there.

SC’s typically have motional resistances above 50 ohms. This usually makes transmission
a better way to look for this or that resonance than impedance.

Bob

On Feb 25, 2020, at 7:42 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:

I had a Morion MV89A that would stop oscillating when Vtune was more than +600 mV.

So I cut it open to recover at least the crystal, for own experiments.

Pics are there:

< https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/49585174873/in/album-72157662535945536/ >

and then following the right arrow.

To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an

R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance

as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz

higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.

But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal?

Is that common?

I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder

station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C

inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp.

I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth

is close to eternal.

Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts

than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board

for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook.

BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean

that the ZVB needs service.

cheers, Gerhard

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi There certainly are fundamental SC’s out there. SC’s typically have motional resistances above 50 ohms. This usually makes transmission a better way to look for this or that resonance than impedance. Bob > On Feb 25, 2020, at 7:42 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > I had a Morion MV89A that would stop oscillating when Vtune was more than +600 mV. > > So I cut it open to recover at least the crystal, for own experiments. > > Pics are there: > > < https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/49585174873/in/album-72157662535945536/ > > > and then following the right arrow. > > > To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an > > R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance > > as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz > > higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut. > > But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal? > > Is that common? > > I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder > > station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C > > inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp. > > I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth > > is close to eternal. > > > Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts > > than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board > > for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook. > > > BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean > > that the ZVB needs service. > > > cheers, Gerhard > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

AK

Attila Kinali

Wed, Feb 26, 2020 2:22 PM

Hoi Gerhard!

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 01:42:11 +0100
Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:

Pics are there:

<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/49585174873/in/album-72157662535945536/
>

Nice pictures! Thanks!

Do you know what the two coils/transformers that were glued to the
outside of the inner oven were for?

But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a
fundamental crystal?

Judging from the specs, very unlikely. The short-term and long-term
stability are consistent with what I expect of an 3rd overtone 5MHz
SC cut crystal. The lower Q of a fundamental mode crystal would result
in a higher close in phase noise and the thinner plate would lead to
a higher aging rate at tau of one day. I can see two reasons for you
to not see the fundamental mode: Either your measurement setup was not
done properly to measure quartz crystals (see Bob's comment on impedance)
or they manufactured the crystal for low fundamental mode.

Bernd Neubig has written a few documents on how to measure crystals
properly, which should be available from Axtal's website, if I'm not
mistaken.

		Attila Kinali

--
In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
-- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering

Hoi Gerhard! On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 01:42:11 +0100 Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Pics are there: > > < > https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/49585174873/in/album-72157662535945536/ > > Nice pictures! Thanks! Do you know what the two coils/transformers that were glued to the outside of the inner oven were for? > But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a > fundamental crystal? Judging from the specs, very unlikely. The short-term and long-term stability are consistent with what I expect of an 3rd overtone 5MHz SC cut crystal. The lower Q of a fundamental mode crystal would result in a higher close in phase noise and the thinner plate would lead to a higher aging rate at tau of one day. I can see two reasons for you to not see the fundamental mode: Either your measurement setup was not done properly to measure quartz crystals (see Bob's comment on impedance) or they manufactured the crystal for low fundamental mode. Bernd Neubig has written a few documents on how to measure crystals properly, which should be available from Axtal's website, if I'm not mistaken. Attila Kinali -- In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it. In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it. -- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering

GH

Gerhard Hoffmann

Wed, Feb 26, 2020 6:34 PM

Am 26.02.20 um 15:22 schrieb Attila Kinali via time-nuts:

Do you know what the two coils/transformers that were glued to the
outside of the inner oven were for?

I guess they are part of the 5 -> 10 MHz doubler

Bernd Neubig has written a few documents on how to measure crystals
properly, which should be available from Axtal's website, if I'm not
mistaken.

Yes, I mentionend the Quarzkochbuch above. There was a nonstandard

solution proposed by Detleff Burchard in UKW-Berichte / VHF Communications

4/92 but I can't find my copy. I had built the head some 20 years ago

and it seemed to work. The drawback was that one had to compensate C0,

at least at 100 MHz.

regards, Gerhard

Am 26.02.20 um 15:22 schrieb Attila Kinali via time-nuts: > Do you know what the two coils/transformers that were glued to the > outside of the inner oven were for? I guess they are part of the 5 -> 10 MHz doubler > Bernd Neubig has written a few documents on how to measure crystals > properly, which should be available from Axtal's website, if I'm not > mistaken. Yes, I mentionend the Quarzkochbuch above. There was a nonstandard solution proposed by Detleff Burchard in UKW-Berichte / VHF Communications 4/92 but I can't find my copy. I had built the head some 20 years ago and it seemed to work. The drawback was that one had to compensate C0, at least at 100 MHz. regards, Gerhard

BN

Bernd Neubig

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 4:40 AM

Hi Gerhard,
I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal.
the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum.
See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package.
Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient of -30 ppm/K
Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode.
To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth

Regards
Bernd
DK1AG

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42

To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an
R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance
as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz
higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.
But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal?
Is that common?
I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder
station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C
inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp.
I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth
is close to eternal.
Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts
than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board
for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook.
BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean
that the ZVB needs service.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Gerhard, I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal. the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum. See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package. Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient of -30 ppm/K Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode. To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth Regards Bernd DK1AG -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42 To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut. But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal? Is that common? I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp. I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth is close to eternal. Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook. BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean that the ZVB needs service. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.

BK

Bob kb8tq

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 1:35 PM

Hi

Ok, so just to run the math:

5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz

If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz / 500,000 = 3.4 Hz

In a world where a synthesized sweeper might be stepping in 10Hz steps, that’s an
easy one to miss.

Bob

On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig BNeubig@t-online.de wrote:

Hi Gerhard,
I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal.
the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum.
See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package.
Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient of -30 ppm/K
Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode.
To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth

Regards
Bernd
DK1AG

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42

To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an
R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance
as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz
higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.
But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal?
Is that common?
I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder
station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C
inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp.
I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth
is close to eternal.
Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts
than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board
for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook.
BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean
that the ZVB needs service.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
<5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Ok, so just to run the math: 5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz / 500,000 = 3.4 Hz In a world where a synthesized sweeper *might* be stepping in 10Hz steps, that’s an easy one to miss. Bob > On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig <BNeubig@t-online.de> wrote: > > Hi Gerhard, > I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal. > the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum. > See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package. > Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient of -30 ppm/K > Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode. > To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth > > Regards > Bernd > DK1AG > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42 > > To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an > R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance > as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz > higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut. > But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal? > Is that common? > I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder > station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C > inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp. > I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth > is close to eternal. > Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts > than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board > for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook. > BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean > that the ZVB needs service. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > <5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

MD

Magnus Danielson

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 3:39 PM

Hi,

Even if my VNA steps in 1 Hz if I ask it kindly, it can be a bit
teadious work to find it.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-02-27 14:35, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Ok, so just to run the math:

5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz

If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz / 500,000 = 3.4 Hz

In a world where a synthesized sweeper might be stepping in 10Hz steps, that’s an
easy one to miss.

Bob

On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig BNeubig@t-online.de wrote:

Hi Gerhard,
I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal.
the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum.
See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package.
Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient of -30 ppm/K
Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode.
To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth

Regards
Bernd
DK1AG

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42

To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an
R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance
as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz
higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.
But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal?
Is that common?
I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder
station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C
inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp.
I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth
is close to eternal.
Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts
than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board
for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook.
BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean
that the ZVB needs service.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
<5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi, Even if my VNA steps in 1 Hz if I ask it kindly, it can be a bit teadious work to find it. Cheers, Magnus On 2020-02-27 14:35, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > Ok, so just to run the math: > > 5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz > > If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz / 500,000 = 3.4 Hz > > In a world where a synthesized sweeper *might* be stepping in 10Hz steps, that’s an > easy one to miss. > > Bob > > >> On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig <BNeubig@t-online.de> wrote: >> >> Hi Gerhard, >> I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal. >> the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum. >> See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package. >> Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient of -30 ppm/K >> Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode. >> To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth >> >> Regards >> Bernd >> DK1AG >> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42 >> >> To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an >> R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance >> as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz >> higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut. >> But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal? >> Is that common? >> I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder >> station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C >> inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp. >> I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth >> is close to eternal. >> Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts >> than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board >> for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook. >> BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean >> that the ZVB needs service. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> <5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

DW

Dana Whitlow

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 3:58 PM

If you start off viewing the crystal in series (S21) I believe that you'll
be able to see
some response far enough away from the resonance to make it easier to find.

Dana

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 9:39 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:

Hi,

Even if my VNA steps in 1 Hz if I ask it kindly, it can be a bit
teadious work to find it.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-02-27 14:35, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Ok, so just to run the math:

5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz

If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz /

500,000 = 3.4 Hz

In a world where a synthesized sweeper might be stepping in 10Hz

steps, that’s an

easy one to miss.

Bob

On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig BNeubig@t-online.de wrote:

Hi Gerhard,
I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal.
the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5

million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or
smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum.

See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package.
Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient

of -30 ppm/K

Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are

quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone
is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode.

To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz

span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth

Regards
Bernd
DK1AG

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag

von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42

To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and

put it on an

R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz

resonance

as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one

another 90 KHz

higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.
But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a

fundamental crystal?

Is that common?
I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air

solder

station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C
inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz

resonance vs. temp.

I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz

bandwidth

is close to eternal.
Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger

with SC-cuts

than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make

a board

for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook.
BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that

does not mean

that the ZVB needs service.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go

to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com

and follow the instructions there.
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If you start off viewing the crystal in series (S21) I believe that you'll be able to see some response far enough away from the resonance to make it easier to find. Dana On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 9:39 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote: > Hi, > > Even if my VNA steps in 1 Hz if I ask it kindly, it can be a bit > teadious work to find it. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > On 2020-02-27 14:35, Bob kb8tq wrote: > > Hi > > > > Ok, so just to run the math: > > > > 5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz > > > > If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz / > 500,000 = 3.4 Hz > > > > In a world where a synthesized sweeper *might* be stepping in 10Hz > steps, that’s an > > easy one to miss. > > > > Bob > > > > > >> On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig <BNeubig@t-online.de> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Gerhard, > >> I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal. > >> the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 > million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or > smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum. > >> See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package. > >> Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient > of -30 ppm/K > >> Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are > quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone > is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode. > >> To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz > span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth > >> > >> Regards > >> Bernd > >> DK1AG > >> > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > >> Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag > von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42 > >> > >> To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and > put it on an > >> R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz > resonance > >> as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one > another 90 KHz > >> higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut. > >> But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a > fundamental crystal? > >> Is that common? > >> I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air > solder > >> station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C > >> inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz > resonance vs. temp. > >> I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz > bandwidth > >> is close to eternal. > >> Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger > with SC-cuts > >> than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make > a board > >> for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook. > >> BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that > does not mean > >> that the ZVB needs service. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go > to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> <5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >

R(

Richard (Rick) Karlquist

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 4:45 PM

OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
oscillator and see where it oscillates.
That's what they did back in the dark
ages.

Any time nut should be up for that.

Rick N6RK

On 2/27/2020 5:35 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Ok, so just to run the math:

5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz

If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz / 500,000 = 3.4 Hz

In a world where a synthesized sweeper might be stepping in 10Hz steps, that’s an
easy one to miss.

Bob

On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig BNeubig@t-online.de wrote:

Hi Gerhard,
I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal.
the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum.
See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package.
Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient of -30 ppm/K
Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode.
To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth

Regards
Bernd
DK1AG

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42

To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an
R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance
as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz
higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.
But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal?
Is that common?
I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder
station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C
inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp.
I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth
is close to eternal.
Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts
than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board
for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook.
BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean
that the ZVB needs service.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
<5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts oscillator and see where it oscillates. That's what they did back in the dark ages. Any time nut should be up for that. Rick N6RK On 2/27/2020 5:35 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > Ok, so just to run the math: > > 5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz > > If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz / 500,000 = 3.4 Hz > > In a world where a synthesized sweeper *might* be stepping in 10Hz steps, that’s an > easy one to miss. > > Bob > > >> On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig <BNeubig@t-online.de> wrote: >> >> Hi Gerhard, >> I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal. >> the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum. >> See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package. >> Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature coefficient of -30 ppm/K >> Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode. >> To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth >> >> Regards >> Bernd >> DK1AG >> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42 >> >> To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and put it on an >> R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz resonance >> as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller one another 90 KHz >> higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut. >> But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a fundamental crystal? >> Is that common? >> I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air solder >> station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C >> inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz resonance vs. temp. >> I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 Hz bandwidth >> is close to eternal. >> Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones stronger with SC-cuts >> than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll make a board >> for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal cookbook. >> BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that does not mean >> that the ZVB needs service. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> <5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >

BL

Brian Lloyd

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 5:07 PM

On 2/27/20 10:45, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
oscillator and see where it oscillates.
That's what they did back in the dark
ages.

Any time nut should be up for that.

I was going to suggest pumping it with white noise and then doing a long
FFT to see which bin has any energy in it to get into the ballpark but
building an oscillator seems to be far and away the simplest solution.

Rick N6RK

On 2/27/2020 5:35 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Ok, so just to run the math:

5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz

If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz /
500,000 = 3.4 Hz

In a world where a synthesized sweeper might be stepping in 10Hz
steps, that’s an
easy one to miss.

Bob

On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig BNeubig@t-online.de wrote:

Hi Gerhard,
I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal.
the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5
million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100
Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum.
See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package.
Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature
coefficient of -30 ppm/K
Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones
are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd
overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode.
To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100
kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth

Regards
Bernd
DK1AG

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag
von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42

To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and
put it on an
R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz
resonance
as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller
one another 90 KHz
higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.
But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a
fundamental crystal?
Is that common?
I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air
solder
station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C
inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz
resonance vs. temp.
I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1
Hz bandwidth
is close to eternal.
Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones
stronger with SC-cuts
than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll
make a board
for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal
cookbook.
BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that
does not mean
that the ZVB needs service.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe,
go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
<5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.

--

https://www.lloyd.aero

Brian Lloyd
706 Flightline
Spring Branch, TX 78070
brian@lloyd.aero mailto://brian@lloyd.aero
+1.210.802.8359

On 2/27/20 10:45, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts > oscillator and see where it oscillates. > That's what they did back in the dark > ages. > > Any time nut should be up for that. I was going to suggest pumping it with white noise and then doing a long FFT to see which bin has any energy in it to get into the ballpark but building an oscillator seems to be far and away the simplest solution. > > Rick N6RK > > On 2/27/2020 5:35 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >> Hi >> >> Ok, so just to run the math: >> >> 5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz >> >> If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz / >> 500,000 = 3.4 Hz >> >> In a world where a synthesized sweeper *might* be stepping in 10Hz >> steps, that’s an >> easy one to miss. >> >> Bob >> >> >>> On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig <BNeubig@t-online.de> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gerhard, >>> I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal. >>> the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 >>> million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 >>> Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum. >>> See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package. >>> Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature >>> coefficient of -30 ppm/K >>> Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones >>> are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd >>> overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode. >>> To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 >>> kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth >>> >>> Regards >>> Bernd >>> DK1AG >>> >>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag >>> von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts >>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42 >>> >>> To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and >>> put it on an >>> R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz >>> resonance >>> as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller >>> one another 90 KHz >>> higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut. >>> But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a >>> fundamental crystal? >>> Is that common? >>> I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air >>> solder >>> station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C >>> inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz >>> resonance vs. temp. >>> I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 >>> Hz bandwidth >>> is close to eternal. >>> Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones >>> stronger with SC-cuts >>> than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll >>> make a board >>> for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal >>> cookbook. >>> BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that >>> does not mean >>> that the ZVB needs service. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, >>> go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> <5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. -- <https://www.lloyd.aero> Brian Lloyd 706 Flightline Spring Branch, TX 78070 brian@lloyd.aero <mailto://brian@lloyd.aero> +1.210.802.8359

GH

Gerhard Hoffmann

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 5:27 PM

Am 27.02.20 um 17:45 schrieb Richard (Rick) Karlquist:

OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
oscillator and see where it oscillates.
That's what they did back in the dark
ages.

Any time nut should be up for that.

5.000 MHz. That was easy. It used to be in something Colpitts-like

for 30 years, but did not age to its advantage like good Scotch.

I was just puzzled because I could not find the fundamental.

When the subharmonic is so far off as Bernd has said, then I could

well have searched a day with the network analyzer at 1 Hz receiver

bandwidth without finding it. I'll postpone that to the weekend.

Someone has reverse-engineered the whole oscillator:

< https://www.bartelsos.de/dk7jb.php/ocxo-morion-mv89a?download=118 >

Jörn seems to read the timenut list, HI!

cheers, Gerhard

(now I'll have to shovel some snow, first time for this winter!)

Rick N6RK

On 2/27/2020 5:35 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Ok, so just to run the math:

5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz

If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz /
500,000 = 3.4 Hz

In a world where a synthesized sweeper might be stepping in 10Hz
steps, that’s an
easy one to miss.

Bob

On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig BNeubig@t-online.de wrote:

Hi Gerhard,
I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal.
the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5
million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100
Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum.
See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package.
Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature
coefficient of -30 ppm/K
Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones
are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd
overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode.
To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100
kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth

Regards
Bernd
DK1AG

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag
von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42

To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and
put it on an
R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz
resonance
as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller
one another 90 KHz
higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut.
But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a
fundamental crystal?
Is that common?
I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air
solder
station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C
inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz
resonance vs. temp.
I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1
Hz bandwidth
is close to eternal.
Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones
stronger with SC-cuts
than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll
make a board
for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal
cookbook.
BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that
does not mean
that the ZVB needs service.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe,
go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
<5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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To unsubscribe, go to
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Am 27.02.20 um 17:45 schrieb Richard (Rick) Karlquist: > OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts > oscillator and see where it oscillates. > That's what they did back in the dark > ages. > > Any time nut should be up for that. > 5.000 MHz. That was easy. It used to be in something Colpitts-like for 30 years, but did not age to its advantage like good Scotch. I was just puzzled because I could not find the fundamental. When the subharmonic is so far off as Bernd has said, then I could well have searched a day with the network analyzer at 1 Hz receiver bandwidth without finding it. I'll postpone that to the weekend. Someone has reverse-engineered the whole oscillator: < https://www.bartelsos.de/dk7jb.php/ocxo-morion-mv89a?download=118 > Jörn seems to read the timenut list, HI! cheers, Gerhard (now I'll have to shovel some snow, first time for this winter!) > Rick N6RK > > On 2/27/2020 5:35 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >> Hi >> >> Ok, so just to run the math: >> >> 5 MHz / 2.9 = 1.724 MHz >> >> If the Q at the fundamental is 500K (a wild guess) then 1.724 MHz / >> 500,000 = 3.4 Hz >> >> In a world where a synthesized sweeper *might* be stepping in 10Hz >> steps, that’s an >> easy one to miss. >> >> Bob >> >> >>> On Feb 26, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Bernd Neubig <BNeubig@t-online.de> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gerhard, >>> I am rather sure that it is a 5 MHz 3rd overtone crystal. >>> the resistance should be in the 80 to 110 Ohm range and Q about 1.5 >>> million. You can see the resonance without ringing in a span of 100 >>> Hz or smaller with a sweep time of 10 sec minimum. >>> See attached the response of a 5 MHz SC3 crystal in HC-40/U package. >>> Indeed the 5.45 MHz is the B-mode which has a temperature >>> coefficient of -30 ppm/K >>> Because the crystal blank has a plano-convex shape. The overtones >>> are quite far away from 3 times or 5 times the fundamental mode. 3rd >>> overtone is about (rough guess) 2.9 time of fundamental mode. >>> To find them you must really carefully sweep around a few 10 to 100 >>> kHz span with slow sweep time a narrow bandwidth >>> >>> Regards >>> Bernd >>> DK1AG >>> >>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag >>> von Gerhard Hoffmann via time-nuts >>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 01:42 >>> >>> To get a first impression, I soldered the crystal to an SMA plug and >>> put it on an >>> R&S ZVB-8 network analyzer and measured S11. I could see the 5 MHz >>> resonance >>> as a 15 dB dip. There was also a resonance at 5.45 and a smaller >>> one another 90 KHz >>> higher. the +10% suggest that it is an SC cut. >>> But I could not see anything at 1 or 1.6666 MHz, so it should be a >>> fundamental crystal? >>> Is that common? >>> I made most measurements at room temperature. I can turn the hot air >>> solder >>> station down to 91°C which is not far away from the crystal's 87.7°C >>> inflection point, and I could see some variation on the 5.45 MHz >>> resonance vs. temp. >>> I must build a fixture for the hot air because the sweep time at 1 >>> Hz bandwidth >>> is close to eternal. >>> Is the un-harmonicity (???) between fundamental and overtones >>> stronger with SC-cuts >>> than normal AT? I also could not see anything at 15 MHz. Next I'll >>> make a board >>> for the PI fixture as described by Bernd Neubig in his crystal >>> cookbook. >>> BTW I could see some more dips with >= 10 Hz resolution. I hope that >>> does not mean >>> that the ZVB needs service. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, >>> go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> <5MC5735H.jpg>_______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

J

jimlux

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 7:07 PM

On 2/27/20 8:45 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
oscillator and see where it oscillates.
That's what they did back in the dark
ages.

Any time nut should be up for that.

Rick N6RK

But does a deForest Audion (ref Colpitts patent 1624537 1918) have
enough gain at 5 or 10 MHz?

I guess so, by 1930 deForest was selling oscillators and receivers at
15,000 kilocycles. Although I didn't see any indication of crystal
oscillators - they're all LC tuned. (One mention of crystal control is
in an article about a SW crystal controlled Transmitter by Lester
Spangenberg)

https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio-News/30s/Radio-News-1930-05-R.pdf

(Timenuts - your experience and training probably qualifies you for a
job in Radio-Television - Talking Pictures, see the ads!)

I seem to recall that crystals for frequency control (on a commercial
basis) were sort of a post WW2 thing (partly because of developments in
piezo hydrophones for sonar)

On 2/27/20 8:45 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts > oscillator and see where it oscillates. > That's what they did back in the dark > ages. > > Any time nut should be up for that. > > Rick N6RK > But does a deForest Audion (ref Colpitts patent 1624537 1918) have enough gain at 5 or 10 MHz? I guess so, by 1930 deForest was selling oscillators and receivers at 15,000 kilocycles. Although I didn't see any indication of crystal oscillators - they're all LC tuned. (One mention of crystal control is in an article about a SW crystal controlled Transmitter by Lester Spangenberg) https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio-News/30s/Radio-News-1930-05-R.pdf (Timenuts - your experience and training probably qualifies you for a job in Radio-Television - Talking Pictures, see the ads!) I seem to recall that crystals for frequency control (on a commercial basis) were sort of a post WW2 thing (partly because of developments in piezo hydrophones for sonar)

R(

Richard (Rick) Karlquist

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 8:07 PM

I seem to recall that crystals for frequency control (on a commercial
basis) were sort of a post WW2 thing (partly because of developments in
piezo hydrophones for sonar)

Crystals for radios were well established pre-WWII. There was an
FCS paper ~30 years ago about the WWII quartz shortage and the
research to find alternatives to quartz (which they didn't know
how to grow synthetically yet). Spoiler alert: there is nothing
else like quartz!.

Novice hams routinely used war surplus crystals (FT-243?) after the war.
I had some at 3.7 and 7.15 MHz fundamental and they oscillated
fine with receiving tubes, circa 1965.

There was some standard military crystal test set from the war that
was always referenced in crystal specs in those days. The test
set was in essence a "golden" oscillator.

Rick N6RK

> > I seem to recall that crystals for frequency control (on a commercial > basis) were sort of a post WW2 thing (partly because of developments in > piezo hydrophones for sonar) > Crystals for radios were well established pre-WWII. There was an FCS paper ~30 years ago about the WWII quartz shortage and the research to find alternatives to quartz (which they didn't know how to grow synthetically yet). Spoiler alert: there is nothing else like quartz!. Novice hams routinely used war surplus crystals (FT-243?) after the war. I had some at 3.7 and 7.15 MHz fundamental and they oscillated fine with receiving tubes, circa 1965. There was some standard military crystal test set from the war that was always referenced in crystal specs in those days. The test set was in essence a "golden" oscillator. Rick N6RK

DV

David Van Horn

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 8:15 PM

I remember opening up those military crystals and sanding them down with Ajax cleaner to raise the frequency or rubbing a little solder on the plate to lower it for CW transmitters.

High school days. 😊

--
David VanHorn
Lead Hardware Engineer

Backcountry Access, Inc.
2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H
Boulder, CO 80301 USA
phone: 303-417-1345 x110
email: david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com

I remember opening up those military crystals and sanding them down with Ajax cleaner to raise the frequency or rubbing a little solder on the plate to lower it for CW transmitters. High school days. 😊 -- David VanHorn Lead Hardware Engineer Backcountry Access, Inc. 2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H Boulder, CO 80301 USA phone: 303-417-1345 x110 email: david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com

BK

Bob kb8tq

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 9:36 PM

Hi

The crystal industry in the US went from a couple of outfits (mostly in PA) making <
a hundred a month in the 1930’s, to a massive bunch of outfits during WWII. Most
were turning out a couple hundred an hour.

Much of that collapsed when the war ended and the demand went away. A few outfits
combined with others. The vast majority of companies simply vanished.

Bob

On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:07 PM, jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:

On 2/27/20 8:45 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
oscillator and see where it oscillates.
That's what they did back in the dark
ages.
Any time nut should be up for that.
Rick N6RK

But does a deForest Audion (ref Colpitts patent 1624537 1918) have enough gain at 5 or 10 MHz?

I guess so, by 1930 deForest was selling oscillators and receivers at 15,000 kilocycles. Although I didn't see any indication of crystal oscillators - they're all LC tuned. (One mention of crystal control is in an article about a SW crystal controlled Transmitter by Lester Spangenberg)

https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio-News/30s/Radio-News-1930-05-R.pdf

(Timenuts - your experience and training probably qualifies you for a job in Radio-Television - Talking Pictures, see the ads!)

I seem to recall that crystals for frequency control (on a commercial basis) were sort of a post WW2 thing (partly because of developments in piezo hydrophones for sonar)

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi The crystal industry in the US went from a couple of outfits (mostly in PA) making < a hundred a month in the 1930’s, to a massive bunch of outfits during WWII. Most were turning out a couple hundred an hour. Much of that collapsed when the war ended and the demand went away. A few outfits combined with others. The vast majority of companies simply vanished. Bob > On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:07 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On 2/27/20 8:45 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: >> OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts >> oscillator and see where it oscillates. >> That's what they did back in the dark >> ages. >> Any time nut should be up for that. >> Rick N6RK > > But does a deForest Audion (ref Colpitts patent 1624537 1918) have enough gain at 5 or 10 MHz? > > I guess so, by 1930 deForest was selling oscillators and receivers at 15,000 kilocycles. Although I didn't see any indication of crystal oscillators - they're all LC tuned. (One mention of crystal control is in an article about a SW crystal controlled Transmitter by Lester Spangenberg) > > https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio-News/30s/Radio-News-1930-05-R.pdf > > (Timenuts - your experience and training probably qualifies you for a job in Radio-Television - Talking Pictures, see the ads!) > > I seem to recall that crystals for frequency control (on a commercial basis) were sort of a post WW2 thing (partly because of developments in piezo hydrophones for sonar) > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

R(

Richard (Rick) Karlquist

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 10:12 PM

Been there; done that!

Rick N6RK

On 2/27/2020 12:15 PM, David Van Horn via time-nuts wrote:

I remember opening up those military crystals and sanding them down with Ajax cleaner to raise the frequency or rubbing a little solder on the plate to lower it for CW transmitters.

High school days. 😊

--
David VanHorn
Lead Hardware Engineer

Backcountry Access, Inc.
2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H
Boulder, CO 80301 USA
phone: 303-417-1345 x110
email: david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Been there; done that! Rick N6RK On 2/27/2020 12:15 PM, David Van Horn via time-nuts wrote: > I remember opening up those military crystals and sanding them down with Ajax cleaner to raise the frequency or rubbing a little solder on the plate to lower it for CW transmitters. > > High school days. 😊 > > -- > David VanHorn > Lead Hardware Engineer > > Backcountry Access, Inc. > 2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H > Boulder, CO 80301 USA > phone: 303-417-1345 x110 > email: david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >

BK

Bob kb8tq

Thu, Feb 27, 2020 10:52 PM

Hi

Ahhhh, but did you then whip up a batch of ammonium bifluoride to clean them up after
playing with the grinding compound? :) They figured that part out part way through WWII.
The lack proper post grind etch just about had all the radios out there out of service.

Bob

On Feb 27, 2020, at 5:12 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist richard@karlquist.com wrote:

Been there; done that!

Rick N6RK

On 2/27/2020 12:15 PM, David Van Horn via time-nuts wrote:

I remember opening up those military crystals and sanding them down with Ajax cleaner to raise the frequency or rubbing a little solder on the plate to lower it for CW transmitters.
High school days. 😊

David VanHorn
Lead Hardware Engineer
Backcountry Access, Inc.
2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H
Boulder, CO 80301 USA
phone: 303-417-1345 x110
email: david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Ahhhh, but did you then whip up a batch of ammonium bifluoride to clean them up after playing with the grinding compound? :) They figured that part out part way through WWII. The lack proper post grind etch just about had all the radios out there out of service. Bob > On Feb 27, 2020, at 5:12 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <richard@karlquist.com> wrote: > > Been there; done that! > > Rick N6RK > > On 2/27/2020 12:15 PM, David Van Horn via time-nuts wrote: >> I remember opening up those military crystals and sanding them down with Ajax cleaner to raise the frequency or rubbing a little solder on the plate to lower it for CW transmitters. >> High school days. 😊 >> -- >> David VanHorn >> Lead Hardware Engineer >> Backcountry Access, Inc. >> 2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H >> Boulder, CO 80301 USA >> phone: 303-417-1345 x110 >> email: david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

AK

Attila Kinali

Fri, Feb 28, 2020 10:34 AM

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist" richard@karlquist.com wrote:

OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
oscillator and see where it oscillates.
That's what they did back in the dark
ages.

Any time nut should be up for that.

Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator?
I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build
a high stability oscillator.

I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting
in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge
to make good use of them.

			Attila Kinali

--
In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
-- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800 "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard@karlquist.com> wrote: > OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts > oscillator and see where it oscillates. > That's what they did back in the dark > ages. > > Any time nut should be up for that. Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator? I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build a high stability oscillator. I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge to make good use of them. Attila Kinali -- In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it. In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it. -- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering

BG

Bruce Griffiths

Fri, Feb 28, 2020 11:08 AM

That's not relevant.
The idea is to see what frequency the crystal oscillates at not to build a high stability oscillator.
If can be made to oscillate at a frequency somewhere around 5MHz/3 then its likely a third overtone crystal.

Bruce

On 28 February 2020 at 23:34 Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist" richard@karlquist.com wrote:

OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
oscillator and see where it oscillates.
That's what they did back in the dark
ages.

Any time nut should be up for that.

Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator?
I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build
a high stability oscillator.

I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting
in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge
to make good use of them.

			Attila Kinali

--
In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
-- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

That's not relevant. The idea is to see what frequency the crystal oscillates at not to build a high stability oscillator. If can be made to oscillate at a frequency somewhere around 5MHz/3 then its likely a third overtone crystal. Bruce > On 28 February 2020 at 23:34 Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> wrote: > > > On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800 > "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard@karlquist.com> wrote: > > > OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts > > oscillator and see where it oscillates. > > That's what they did back in the dark > > ages. > > > > Any time nut should be up for that. > > Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator? > I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build > a high stability oscillator. > > I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting > in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge > to make good use of them. > > Attila Kinali > > -- > In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it. > In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it. > -- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

GC

Gilles Clement

Fri, Feb 28, 2020 11:21 AM

Well said, been looking for this « tutorial» eagerly myself too.
GC.

Le 28 févr. 2020 à 11:35, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch a écrit :

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist" richard@karlquist.com wrote:

OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
oscillator and see where it oscillates.
That's what they did back in the dark
ages.
Any time nut should be up for that.

Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator?
I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build
a high stability oscillator.

I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting
in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge
to make good use of them.

           Attila Kinali

--
In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
-- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Well said, been looking for this « tutorial» eagerly myself too. GC. > Le 28 févr. 2020 à 11:35, Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> a écrit : > > On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800 > "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard@karlquist.com> wrote: > >> OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts >> oscillator and see where it oscillates. >> That's what they did back in the dark >> ages. >> Any time nut should be up for that. > > Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator? > I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build > a high stability oscillator. > > I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting > in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge > to make good use of them. > > Attila Kinali > > -- > In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it. > In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it. > -- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

time-nuts@lists.febo.com

Are there SC-crystals out there in the wild that are not Overtone?

I remember opening up those military crystals and sanding them down with Ajax cleaner to raise the frequency or rubbing a little solder on the plate to lower it for CW transmitters. High school days. 😊

I remember opening up those military crystals and sanding them down with Ajax cleaner to raise the frequency or rubbing a little solder on the plate to lower it for CW transmitters.
High school days. 😊