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Re: [volt-nuts] Keithley 417 electrometer upgrade to solid-state

EB
ed breya
Fri, Jul 24, 2020 11:25 PM

BTW I'd recommend not rushing out to obtain LMC6001s just yet. I see
they are quite expensive new, and there are alternatives that are much
cheaper and may work even better. I have a a number of candidate parts
and data collected many years ago, that are not organized. As I sort
through my old notes and parts, I'm getting things in order, and will
report more info later.

The short list is here, from what I've recalled so far. Always get PDIP
package if possible - surface mount won't work well. Neither will TO-99
or ceramic (if such exist anymore), without silicone treatment.

LMC6041 single, similar to LMC6001, possibly much lower bias if used
properly.
LMC6042 dual version of '41, pinout of duals can be used advantageously
for voltage followers.
LMC662 dual, similar to '6042.

I vaguely recall that there were a few others in the LMC family with low
bias, tending to be LMC6-something-something -1 or -2, singles and
duals. Don't bother with quad opamps in any of these - the pinouts are
useless for ultra-high Z applications. There were also some from
Burr-Brown and AD, back in the old days. There may be some much newer
types, but the LMCs are still in production after all these years. The
line is owned by TI, since they acquired National years ago.

The input bias current is paramount, of course, but depends on not just
the specs, but on how they actually work inside, how they are packaged,
and how they are applied. It's not easy to predict or discern real
performance to expect, without experimenting.

The input protection devices and structures of the CMOS opamps are key
to getting low bias current. The package and pinout determine the
external limits of performance. You can't do anything about these, but
you can choose the best trade-offs for an application. The more you can
figure out about the input behavior, the better you can use it.

Once you have some parts to try out, first study the protection devices.
For instance, I know that the LMC6001 has single junction diode clamps
to the rails, protecting the MOS input gates, and some series resistance
from there to the outside world. I studied this long ago, planning to
use one as a logging cell for another project. Chances are that similar
ones are the same, but sometimes they're optimized for other features,
and use different protection schemes.

Once you know what the input looks like, the main thing is to see how
the bias current responds to the power supply voltages, and with it, the
input common-mode voltage. Here's an interesting thing that I plan to
study: I have a couple of electrometer boards from junked equipment,
that use the LMC6041. I studied the circuits to see about re-using them
whole, and found they ran the opamp from locally regulated +3V, and -10V

  • very asymmetrically. Maybe they found this best for minimizing bias
    current, or maybe it's just coincidence, and they needed it for the
    input or output voltage ranges in the rest of the system. Indeed,
    looking at the datasheet, it appears the bias goes way up as common-mode
    goes toward the negative supply, although the listed conditions are not
    well defined, and kind of ambiguous. I assume that for some reason, the
    input protection in this part is asymmetric, unlike the LMC6001, or
    there are some other things going on in there - like maybe because the
    '6041 has rail to rail output, while the '6001 does not.

That's all for now. Have fun.

Ed

BTW I'd recommend not rushing out to obtain LMC6001s just yet. I see they are quite expensive new, and there are alternatives that are much cheaper and may work even better. I have a a number of candidate parts and data collected many years ago, that are not organized. As I sort through my old notes and parts, I'm getting things in order, and will report more info later. The short list is here, from what I've recalled so far. Always get PDIP package if possible - surface mount won't work well. Neither will TO-99 or ceramic (if such exist anymore), without silicone treatment. LMC6041 single, similar to LMC6001, possibly much lower bias if used properly. LMC6042 dual version of '41, pinout of duals can be used advantageously for voltage followers. LMC662 dual, similar to '6042. I vaguely recall that there were a few others in the LMC family with low bias, tending to be LMC6-something-something -1 or -2, singles and duals. Don't bother with quad opamps in any of these - the pinouts are useless for ultra-high Z applications. There were also some from Burr-Brown and AD, back in the old days. There may be some much newer types, but the LMCs are still in production after all these years. The line is owned by TI, since they acquired National years ago. The input bias current is paramount, of course, but depends on not just the specs, but on how they actually work inside, how they are packaged, and how they are applied. It's not easy to predict or discern real performance to expect, without experimenting. The input protection devices and structures of the CMOS opamps are key to getting low bias current. The package and pinout determine the external limits of performance. You can't do anything about these, but you can choose the best trade-offs for an application. The more you can figure out about the input behavior, the better you can use it. Once you have some parts to try out, first study the protection devices. For instance, I know that the LMC6001 has single junction diode clamps to the rails, protecting the MOS input gates, and some series resistance from there to the outside world. I studied this long ago, planning to use one as a logging cell for another project. Chances are that similar ones are the same, but sometimes they're optimized for other features, and use different protection schemes. Once you know what the input looks like, the main thing is to see how the bias current responds to the power supply voltages, and with it, the input common-mode voltage. Here's an interesting thing that I plan to study: I have a couple of electrometer boards from junked equipment, that use the LMC6041. I studied the circuits to see about re-using them whole, and found they ran the opamp from locally regulated +3V, and -10V - very asymmetrically. Maybe they found this best for minimizing bias current, or maybe it's just coincidence, and they needed it for the input or output voltage ranges in the rest of the system. Indeed, looking at the datasheet, it appears the bias goes way up as common-mode goes toward the negative supply, although the listed conditions are not well defined, and kind of ambiguous. I assume that for some reason, the input protection in this part is asymmetric, unlike the LMC6001, or there are some other things going on in there - like maybe because the '6041 has rail to rail output, while the '6001 does not. That's all for now. Have fun. Ed
CS
Charles Steinmetz
Mon, Jul 27, 2020 6:12 AM

Ed wrote:

The input bias current is paramount, of course, but depends on not just
the specs, but on how they actually work inside, how they are packaged,
and how they are applied. It's not easy to predict or discern real
performance to expect, without experimenting.

The input protection devices and structures of the CMOS opamps are key
to getting low bias current. The package and pinout determine the
external limits of performance. You can't do anything about these, but
you can choose the best trade-offs for an application. The more you can
figure out about the input behavior, the better you can use it.

*   *   *

Once you know what the input looks like, the main thing is to see how
the bias current responds to the power supply voltages, and with it, the
input common-mode voltage.

In particular, be very wary if the chosen op-amp is an "RRI" type
(rail-to-rail input).  [Neither the LMC6001 nor the LMC6041 appears to
have a rail-to-rail input.]

RRI op-amps use different front end circuitry as the input common-mode
voltage moves from one power-supply rail to the other.  This is
generally seen in astonishingly ugly (and discontinuous) graphs of input
leakage ("bias") current, offset voltage, and distortion vs. common-mode
input voltage.

This phenomenon is discussed (along with similar strangeness with
rail-to-rail output circuitry) [as Ed notes, the LMC6041 is an "RRO"
op-amp] in Horowitz & Hill's "Art of Electronics," 3rd ed., Section 5.9
(pp. 315 ff), and their "Art of Electronics -- The X Chapters," Section
4x.11 (pp. 336 ff).  A few brave op-amp manufacturers also disclose
these behaviors in their literature.

Best regards,

Charles

Ed wrote: > The input bias current is paramount, of course, but depends on not just > the specs, but on how they actually work inside, how they are packaged, > and how they are applied. It's not easy to predict or discern real > performance to expect, without experimenting. > > The input protection devices and structures of the CMOS opamps are key > to getting low bias current. The package and pinout determine the > external limits of performance. You can't do anything about these, but > you can choose the best trade-offs for an application. The more you can > figure out about the input behavior, the better you can use it. > > * * * > > Once you know what the input looks like, the main thing is to see how > the bias current responds to the power supply voltages, and with it, the > input common-mode voltage. In particular, be very wary if the chosen op-amp is an "RRI" type (rail-to-rail input). [Neither the LMC6001 nor the LMC6041 appears to have a rail-to-rail input.] RRI op-amps use different front end circuitry as the input common-mode voltage moves from one power-supply rail to the other. This is generally seen in astonishingly ugly (and discontinuous) graphs of input leakage ("bias") current, offset voltage, and distortion vs. common-mode input voltage. This phenomenon is discussed (along with similar strangeness with rail-to-rail output circuitry) [as Ed notes, the LMC6041 is an "RRO" op-amp] in Horowitz & Hill's "Art of Electronics," 3rd ed., Section 5.9 (pp. 315 ff), and their "Art of Electronics -- The X Chapters," Section 4x.11 (pp. 336 ff). A few brave op-amp manufacturers also disclose these behaviors in their literature. Best regards, Charles
MK
m k
Mon, Jul 27, 2020 8:00 PM

Hi,

The other strangeness is the huge loss of OLG as they go to either rail.


From: volt-nuts volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com on behalf of Charles Steinmetz csteinmetz@yandex.com
Sent: 27 July 2020 06:12
To: volt-nuts@lists.febo.com volt-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Keithley 417 electrometer upgrade to solid-state

Ed wrote:

The input bias current is paramount, of course, but depends on not just
the specs, but on how they actually work inside, how they are packaged,
and how they are applied. It's not easy to predict or discern real
performance to expect, without experimenting.

The input protection devices and structures of the CMOS opamps are key
to getting low bias current. The package and pinout determine the
external limits of performance. You can't do anything about these, but
you can choose the best trade-offs for an application. The more you can
figure out about the input behavior, the better you can use it.

*   *   *

Once you know what the input looks like, the main thing is to see how
the bias current responds to the power supply voltages, and with it, the
input common-mode voltage.

In particular, be very wary if the chosen op-amp is an "RRI" type
(rail-to-rail input).  [Neither the LMC6001 nor the LMC6041 appears to
have a rail-to-rail input.]

RRI op-amps use different front end circuitry as the input common-mode
voltage moves from one power-supply rail to the other.  This is
generally seen in astonishingly ugly (and discontinuous) graphs of input
leakage ("bias") current, offset voltage, and distortion vs. common-mode
input voltage.

This phenomenon is discussed (along with similar strangeness with
rail-to-rail output circuitry) [as Ed notes, the LMC6041 is an "RRO"
op-amp] in Horowitz & Hill's "Art of Electronics," 3rd ed., Section 5.9
(pp. 315 ff), and their "Art of Electronics -- The X Chapters," Section
4x.11 (pp. 336 ff).  A few brave op-amp manufacturers also disclose
these behaviors in their literature.

Best regards,

Charles


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Hi, The other strangeness is the huge loss of OLG as they go to either rail. ________________________________ From: volt-nuts <volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com> on behalf of Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com> Sent: 27 July 2020 06:12 To: volt-nuts@lists.febo.com <volt-nuts@lists.febo.com> Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Keithley 417 electrometer upgrade to solid-state Ed wrote: > The input bias current is paramount, of course, but depends on not just > the specs, but on how they actually work inside, how they are packaged, > and how they are applied. It's not easy to predict or discern real > performance to expect, without experimenting. > > The input protection devices and structures of the CMOS opamps are key > to getting low bias current. The package and pinout determine the > external limits of performance. You can't do anything about these, but > you can choose the best trade-offs for an application. The more you can > figure out about the input behavior, the better you can use it. > > * * * > > Once you know what the input looks like, the main thing is to see how > the bias current responds to the power supply voltages, and with it, the > input common-mode voltage. In particular, be very wary if the chosen op-amp is an "RRI" type (rail-to-rail input). [Neither the LMC6001 nor the LMC6041 appears to have a rail-to-rail input.] RRI op-amps use different front end circuitry as the input common-mode voltage moves from one power-supply rail to the other. This is generally seen in astonishingly ugly (and discontinuous) graphs of input leakage ("bias") current, offset voltage, and distortion vs. common-mode input voltage. This phenomenon is discussed (along with similar strangeness with rail-to-rail output circuitry) [as Ed notes, the LMC6041 is an "RRO" op-amp] in Horowitz & Hill's "Art of Electronics," 3rd ed., Section 5.9 (pp. 315 ff), and their "Art of Electronics -- The X Chapters," Section 4x.11 (pp. 336 ff). A few brave op-amp manufacturers also disclose these behaviors in their literature. Best regards, Charles _______________________________________________ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
EB
ed breya
Tue, Jul 28, 2020 11:34 PM

Joel and Lou,

I think I successfully sent you both the schematic pdfs - should be an
individual pdf for each of 4 pages. Let me know if they were not received.

Ed

Joel and Lou, I think I successfully sent you both the schematic pdfs - should be an individual pdf for each of 4 pages. Let me know if they were not received. Ed
LA
Lou Amadio
Wed, Jul 29, 2020 1:58 AM

Got them thanks.
Lou

On Wed, 29 Jul. 2020, 9:35 am ed breya, eb@telight.com wrote:

Joel and Lou,

I think I successfully sent you both the schematic pdfs - should be an
individual pdf for each of 4 pages. Let me know if they were not received.

Ed


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Got them thanks. Lou On Wed, 29 Jul. 2020, 9:35 am ed breya, <eb@telight.com> wrote: > Joel and Lou, > > I think I successfully sent you both the schematic pdfs - should be an > individual pdf for each of 4 pages. Let me know if they were not received. > > Ed > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >
JS
Joel Setton
Wed, Jul 29, 2020 7:28 AM

Ed,

Got all the files, thank you. I will read them and will go through the
details, and will get back to you. But for the time being, the main
thing about this very nice project is "Thank you "!!!

Joel

On 29/07/20 01:34, ed breya wrote:

Joel and Lou,

I think I successfully sent you both the schematic pdfs - should be an
individual pdf for each of 4 pages. Let me know if they were not received.

Ed


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Ed, Got all the files, thank you. I will read them and will go through the details, and will get back to you. But for the time being, the main thing about this very nice project is "Thank you "!!! Joel On 29/07/20 01:34, ed breya wrote: > Joel and Lou, > > I think I successfully sent you both the schematic pdfs - should be an > individual pdf for each of 4 pages. Let me know if they were not received. > > Ed > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.
EB
ed breya
Sun, Aug 2, 2020 6:39 PM

I have posted some stuff at the geigercounters group, related to the
noise hits on the 417, so there is now some parallel info there too,
beginning here:

https://groups.io/g/GeigerCounters/message/6843

I'll have more experiment and design info to report in a couple days.

Ed

I have posted some stuff at the geigercounters group, related to the noise hits on the 417, so there is now some parallel info there too, beginning here: https://groups.io/g/GeigerCounters/message/6843 I'll have more experiment and design info to report in a couple days. Ed
BC
Brooke Clarke
Sun, Aug 2, 2020 6:51 PM

Hi Ed:

Hardware that'd going into space and might be exposed to the Van Allen Belt required special treatment of semiconductors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Allen_radiation_belt#Research
For example the Tunnel Diodes we used in microwave amplifiers where highly doped and the effect of a change of doping of
some particle was not a problem.  But for semiconductors that were near intrinsic the effect was huge.  For example a
diode that is Positive-Intrinsic-Negative (PIN) can be used as a radiation sensor.  Also see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-event_upset#History

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:

  1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
  2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

-------- Original Message --------

I have posted some stuff at the geigercounters group, related to the noise hits on the 417, so there is now some
parallel info there too, beginning here:

https://groups.io/g/GeigerCounters/message/6843

I'll have more experiment and design info to report in a couple days.

Ed


volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.

Hi Ed: Hardware that'd going into space and might be exposed to the Van Allen Belt required special treatment of semiconductors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Allen_radiation_belt#Research For example the Tunnel Diodes we used in microwave amplifiers where highly doped and the effect of a change of doping of some particle was not a problem.  But for semiconductors that were near intrinsic the effect was huge.  For example a diode that is Positive-Intrinsic-Negative (PIN) can be used as a radiation sensor.  Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-event_upset#History -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. -------- Original Message -------- > I have posted some stuff at the geigercounters group, related to the noise hits on the 417, so there is now some > parallel info there too, beginning here: > > https://groups.io/g/GeigerCounters/message/6843 > > I'll have more experiment and design info to report in a couple days. > > Ed > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >
EB
ed breya
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 12:08 AM

The schematics are up now, posted here:

https://groups.io/g/GeigerCounters/files/Keithley%20417%20Electrometer%20Upgrade

I'll be reporting a bunch of new info soon too.

Ed

The schematics are up now, posted here: https://groups.io/g/GeigerCounters/files/Keithley%20417%20Electrometer%20Upgrade I'll be reporting a bunch of new info soon too. Ed