From: passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com
Reply-To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Passagemaking-Under-Power Digest, Vol 31, Issue 19
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:00:02 -0400

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Shipping my boat from Asia to North America (Paul Goyette)
2. Med Bound 2007 Noon Report - June 18: Stabilizer problems
   (Georgs Kolesnikovs)
3. Re: Med Bound 2007 Noon Report - June 18: Stabilizer problems
   (Dave Cooper)

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Goyette paul@whooppee.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Shipping my boat from Asia to North America
To: alchemy@post.com,  Passagemaking Under Power List
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: Pine.NEB.4.64.0706182107080.15550@quicky.whooppee.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Gordon,

I used Yacht Path International to ship Gentle Wind from Florida to
Ensenada, several years ago.  I was impressed with their personal
attention to all of the details of the operation, even to the point
where they arranged for a skipper and crew to assist me in moving the
vessel from Fort Lauderdale to West Palm Beach when a stevedore's
"labor action" made loading in FLL impossible.

I highly recommend them - no financial or other interest, just a
satisfied customer!

BTW, unlike Dockwise, Yacht Path loads the boats on the deck of a
freighter, and they build a custom cradle on-the-fly.  No float-on/
float-off.  And everything is very securely tied down.

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Dr. Gordon Anderson wrote:

America

2008,

trials of

Does

of image001.jpg]

of image002.jpg]

Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

|  Paul Goyette  | PGP DSS Key fingerprint: |  E-mail addresses:  |
| Customer Service | FA29 0E3B 35AF E8AE 6651 |  paul@whooppee.com  |
| Network Engineer | 0786 F758 55DE 53BA 7731 | pgoyette@juniper.net |
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:23:16 -0400
From: Georgs Kolesnikovs waterworld@rogers.com
Subject: [PUP] Med Bound 2007 Noon Report - June 18: Stabilizer
problems
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: <p06240854c29d79a2941a@[10.0.1.199]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Noon Report June 18, 2007

Position 34-51.5.N 50-25.4 W as of 12:00 Atlantic time (GMT - 3 hrs)
Monday, June 18, 2007
Course 095 deg M
Speed 5.9 kts @ 1700 RPM
1,075 NM to go to Horta, Faial, Azores (59% of the way)
Distance made good past 24 hours:  147 NM (6.1 kts)
Distance made good since Bermuda: 743 NM (41% of the way)
Total fuel consumed (122.3 engine hours) 460 gals, average 3.8 GPH
(incl. genset), fuel remaining 1020 gal. (fuel used/remaining:
31%/69%)
Conditions: Wind 20-25 kts., swells 3-5 ft from 250 deg M, mostly
cloudy with slight haze, visibility good.
Barometer 1020.3 mb and steady.
Sea water temp 74 deg F, air temp 81 deg F.
ETA Horta: June 25, 2007

What a difference a day makes!

As the Med Bound fleet was overtaken by low pressure overnight,
chasing away yesterday's flat seas and clear skies, our winds and
cloud cover increased. Seas have built slowly to 3-5 feet on the
starboard quarter and looking around we see whitecaps everywhere.
Bob says there's some rain to come, possible thunderstorms.  It was
all quite comfortable until Judy awakened me mid-morning with a
report that we had a stabilizer alarm.  "Probably no big deal," I
thought, as I pulled myself out of bed and made my way to the
pilothouse.  But investigation and trouble-shooting led to my
preliminary diagnosis which was confirmed by Naiad: the starboard
side potentiometer, which tells the system how that fin is
positioned, has failed or malfunctioned.  If the system's  software
doesn't know the position of the fin, it cannot position the fin
correctly-and that was what the alarm was telling us.  What does this
mean?  Bluewater's port side stabilizer fin is out of business.  We
do not carry a spare potentiometer, so for the next 1,000 miles or so
we're down to a single working stabilizer fin to keep us on the
level.  The good news is that a stabilization system like ours is
about 80% as effective on a single fin as on two.

Up on my soapbox for a minute.  If you've been to sea in a full
displacement trawler like a Nordhavn, you know that good
stabilization is a critical part of the equation.  Even without
stabilizers, a vessel like ours is a most seaworthy creation.  It's
not going to sink and it's not going to turn over.  But it will roll
and roll and roll.  The roll is built right into the design, and
nothing I've seen other than active fin stabilizers and their
low-tech cousins, paravanes, can do much about that.

When we began rolling more than normal today after the port
stabilizer went south, George asked seriously whether this boat would
"turn over."  To owners like Judy and me, both of us sailors for more
than 40 years, that seems an odd question-but to someone with a lot
fewer sea miles it's a legitimate one that deserves an answer.  As I
explained to George today, the short answer is, NO.  No Nordhavn has
ever turned over at sea and it's most unlikely that one ever will.
Chief designer Jeff Leishman can give you the technical side, but the
truth is that stability is designed in from the keel up, and it's
physically impossible for a vessel like this to turn over (that is,
roll to port or starboard) and not recover.  By the very nature of
her design and the laws of physics, the farther she rolls in one
direction, the greater the resistance to rolling.  She'll roll, but
she'll always resist the roll and come back in the other direction,
rolling to the other side.  That very stability is what makes her an
uncomfortable yacht when stabilization is lost.

The truth is that no Nordhavn has ever been lost at sea by sinking or
"turning over".  That's just one of many reasons Judy and I own a
Nordhavn and have enough confidence in the yacht to take her across
an ocean!

Stabilization in an ocean-going trawler yacht is much more than a
comfort issue.  In truth it's a safety issue as well.  Yes, a trawler
yacht like Bluewater can go to sea without stabilization, but the
crew aboard such a yacht will be many times less comfortable and runs
a much greater risk of injury from being tossed about in a seaway.
On the other hand, a well stabilized yacht allows crewmembers more
comfort, better rest and more of it, especially in heavy weather.  A
crew with injuries or exhausted from lack of rest is a crew on the
verge of making mistakes!

As much as I love Bluewater's active fin stabilizers, I began this
trip knowing that active fin stabilizers had been the Nordhavn
Atlantic Rally's most troublesome mechanical system.  Crossing oceans
is not for wimpy power boats or wimpy stabilizer systems.  In fact,
it's my guess that a single ocean crossing aboard a trawler yacht
probably subjects its active fin stabilization system to more stress
than many stabilizer systems see in a lifetime.  That's one reason we
outfitted Bluewater with a heavy-duty Naiad system designed for
larger yachts than our 47 feet-but then ordered a backup system,
paravanes, as well.  A paravane system requires a lot of rigging and
it's not pretty to the eye of many owners, but as a backup
stabilization system it has a lot going for it because it has no
hydraulic, electrical, or electronic parts to break-the stabilization
comes from towing heavy delta-wing paravanes through the water to
resist rolling  Paravanes will definitely slow a yacht down when
being used; our experience shows a speed loss of about 4/10 of a
knot, something we do not experience with our Naiads.  But in most
cases a more stable oceangoing yacht trumps a faster one.  So
Bluewater continues on, confident that even if the other stabilizer
packs it in, we'll have stabilization all the way to the Azores.  Our
paravanes are stowed in fittings on our transom and our paravane
poles were deployed in the ready position as we departed Bermuda, so
we can launch paravanes in minutes if the need arises.

Our two companion yachts, the N55s Moana Kuewa and Salty Dawg, both
have TRAC stabilizer systems, a brand favored by many Nordhavn
owners.  My own stabilizer experience-virtually all of it-is with
Naiad, and in building Bluewater my decision was to stick with what I
know.  Over more than 15 years of owning Naiads on two yachts I've
had few stabilizer problems.  Anytime I have had a problem, however,
never once has Naiad failed diagnose the problem quickly and get me
up and running in short order.  It my experience it all comes down to
one man: Vic Kuzmovich, former Naiad chief engineer and for the last
15 years or so head of Naiad Florida.  To quote my friend Scott
Flanders, another Naiad fan, Vic is the real deal-he does what he
says and he stands behind his company's products like nobody else.
Vic is my Naiad oracle!

Bluewater's Naiad active fin stabilizer system is still under
warranty, and I spoke with Vic today about the repair.  To a trained
hydraulics guy, our Naiad system is a robust and simple system, and
changing out a potentiometer ought to be a quick and easy task.  To a
shade-tree mechanic like me, however, it's a different matter!  Do I
have the skills to needed change the potentiometer and align it
properly?  Perhaps with detailed instructions and help from
crewmember George, whose mechanical skills leave mine in the slow
lane, and  from Med Bound 2007 Chief Engineer Bernie Francis, whose
principal technical skills are in diesel mechanics, I can pull it off.

Meanwhile, we're rolling along nicely.  To be sure, we're rolling
more than we would with two working fins, but Bluewater's crew
remains a contented one and our loss of a stabilizer fin is best
considered an inconvenience rather than a serious problem.

--Milt, Judy, George and Schipperke Katy

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:27:46 -0400
From: "Dave Cooper" swansong@gmn-usa.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Med Bound 2007 Noon Report - June 18: Stabilizer
problems
To: "'Passagemaking Under Power List'"
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: 00cd01c7b275$9fca9500$990310ac@Dell
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Milt wrote in part: ..... Chief designer Jeff Leishman can give you the
technical side, but the truth is that stability is designed in from the
keel
up, and it's physically impossible for a vessel like this to turn over
(that
is, roll to port or starboard) and not recover.........>

Wow, I have to believe that this is a misprint or misquote. Ether that or
Jim/Milt haven't been to sea long enough to realize that there's a wave out
there that will tear this kind of thinking to shreds.

All small boats can roll over and do given enough time/exposure to the
seas.
Run a bad inlet on the wrong day and you can find this out. Be at sea in a
big storm with confused breaking seas and you can find this out. Been there
done that and have the mental images firmly burned in my mind. When the
part
labeled this side up is down and the bottom facing the sky you have get a
better appreciation of the sea.

Re stabilizers. The active fins seem to be brought up the most often of
issues that turn these passages into more adventuress passages than any
item. Milt mentions the two system that are available. I beg to differ with
him as they may be only two that are available from Nordhavn there are
other
system that are available and work well, IMHO.

Our stabilization tank was filled last August and hasn't been touched
since.
We have had nothing but positive results for it. It works 100% of the time
whether underway or at anchor. It has performed well up to the 12-15' seas
that we have been exposed to at this point. Does it have it limits? I'll
bet
it does but exactly where that might be I don't know. However we have 2 4"
dump valves at each end to unload the 1500 lbs of water in a few seconds if
required when we get pinned down on one side. Our righting moment is every
bit as good as the Nordhavn from our stability tests and inclination tests
that we were required to do before the tank was designed for us. Will Swan
Song roll over??? You bet your a.. it would given the right sea!! Would it
survive a roll? Most likely not as the glass, even at 3/8" and 1/2" isn't
up
to the pressure of a roll, IMO.

We certainly aren't trying to take anything away from Milt and the Med
Cruise. Good on ya all!! Crossing an ocean is tuff stuff in a small boat
and
isn't to be taken lightly.

However, believing stuff like was in Milt's email can lead to having false
expectations which can lead to not taking actions that might well need to
be
taken to deal with deteriorating conditions.

As always YMMV.....
Dave & Nancy
Swan Song
Roughwater 58
Caribbean Cruise '07

Passagemaking-Under-Power Mailing List

End of Passagemaking-Under-Power Digest, Vol 31, Issue 19

From: passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com
Reply-To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Passagemaking-Under-Power Digest, Vol 31, Issue 19
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:00:02 -0400

Send Passagemaking-Under-Power mailing list submissions to
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
passagemaking-under-power-owner@lists.samurai.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Passagemaking-Under-Power digest..."

Today's Topics:

1. Re: Shipping my boat from Asia to North America (Paul Goyette)
2. Med Bound 2007 Noon Report - June 18: Stabilizer problems
   (Georgs Kolesnikovs)
3. Re: Med Bound 2007 Noon Report - June 18: Stabilizer problems
   (Dave Cooper)

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Goyette paul@whooppee.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Shipping my boat from Asia to North America
To: alchemy@post.com,  Passagemaking Under Power List
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: Pine.NEB.4.64.0706182107080.15550@quicky.whooppee.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Gordon,

I used Yacht Path International to ship Gentle Wind from Florida to
Ensenada, several years ago.  I was impressed with their personal
attention to all of the details of the operation, even to the point
where they arranged for a skipper and crew to assist me in moving the
vessel from Fort Lauderdale to West Palm Beach when a stevedore's
"labor action" made loading in FLL impossible.

I highly recommend them - no financial or other interest, just a
satisfied customer!

BTW, unlike Dockwise, Yacht Path loads the boats on the deck of a
freighter, and they build a custom cradle on-the-fly.  No float-on/
float-off.  And everything is very securely tied down.

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Dr. Gordon Anderson wrote:

America

2008,

trials of

Does

of image001.jpg]

of image002.jpg]

Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

|  Paul Goyette  | PGP DSS Key fingerprint: |  E-mail addresses:  |
| Customer Service | FA29 0E3B 35AF E8AE 6651 |  paul@whooppee.com  |
| Network Engineer | 0786 F758 55DE 53BA 7731 | pgoyette@juniper.net |
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:23:16 -0400
From: Georgs Kolesnikovs waterworld@rogers.com
Subject: [PUP] Med Bound 2007 Noon Report - June 18: Stabilizer
problems
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: <p06240854c29d79a2941a@[10.0.1.199]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Noon Report June 18, 2007

Position 34-51.5.N 50-25.4 W as of 12:00 Atlantic time (GMT - 3 hrs)
Monday, June 18, 2007
Course 095 deg M
Speed 5.9 kts @ 1700 RPM
1,075 NM to go to Horta, Faial, Azores (59% of the way)
Distance made good past 24 hours:  147 NM (6.1 kts)
Distance made good since Bermuda: 743 NM (41% of the way)
Total fuel consumed (122.3 engine hours) 460 gals, average 3.8 GPH
(incl. genset), fuel remaining 1020 gal. (fuel used/remaining:
31%/69%)
Conditions: Wind 20-25 kts., swells 3-5 ft from 250 deg M, mostly
cloudy with slight haze, visibility good.
Barometer 1020.3 mb and steady.
Sea water temp 74 deg F, air temp 81 deg F.
ETA Horta: June 25, 2007

What a difference a day makes!

As the Med Bound fleet was overtaken by low pressure overnight,
chasing away yesterday's flat seas and clear skies, our winds and
cloud cover increased. Seas have built slowly to 3-5 feet on the
starboard quarter and looking around we see whitecaps everywhere.
Bob says there's some rain to come, possible thunderstorms.  It was
all quite comfortable until Judy awakened me mid-morning with a
report that we had a stabilizer alarm.  "Probably no big deal," I
thought, as I pulled myself out of bed and made my way to the
pilothouse.  But investigation and trouble-shooting led to my
preliminary diagnosis which was confirmed by Naiad: the starboard
side potentiometer, which tells the system how that fin is
positioned, has failed or malfunctioned.  If the system's  software
doesn't know the position of the fin, it cannot position the fin
correctly-and that was what the alarm was telling us.  What does this
mean?  Bluewater's port side stabilizer fin is out of business.  We
do not carry a spare potentiometer, so for the next 1,000 miles or so
we're down to a single working stabilizer fin to keep us on the
level.  The good news is that a stabilization system like ours is
about 80% as effective on a single fin as on two.

Up on my soapbox for a minute.  If you've been to sea in a full
displacement trawler like a Nordhavn, you know that good
stabilization is a critical part of the equation.  Even without
stabilizers, a vessel like ours is a most seaworthy creation.  It's
not going to sink and it's not going to turn over.  But it will roll
and roll and roll.  The roll is built right into the design, and
nothing I've seen other than active fin stabilizers and their
low-tech cousins, paravanes, can do much about that.

When we began rolling more than normal today after the port
stabilizer went south, George asked seriously whether this boat would
"turn over."  To owners like Judy and me, both of us sailors for more
than 40 years, that seems an odd question-but to someone with a lot
fewer sea miles it's a legitimate one that deserves an answer.  As I
explained to George today, the short answer is, NO.  No Nordhavn has
ever turned over at sea and it's most unlikely that one ever will.
Chief designer Jeff Leishman can give you the technical side, but the
truth is that stability is designed in from the keel up, and it's
physically impossible for a vessel like this to turn over (that is,
roll to port or starboard) and not recover.  By the very nature of
her design and the laws of physics, the farther she rolls in one
direction, the greater the resistance to rolling.  She'll roll, but
she'll always resist the roll and come back in the other direction,
rolling to the other side.  That very stability is what makes her an
uncomfortable yacht when stabilization is lost.

The truth is that no Nordhavn has ever been lost at sea by sinking or
"turning over".  That's just one of many reasons Judy and I own a
Nordhavn and have enough confidence in the yacht to take her across
an ocean!

Stabilization in an ocean-going trawler yacht is much more than a
comfort issue.  In truth it's a safety issue as well.  Yes, a trawler
yacht like Bluewater can go to sea without stabilization, but the
crew aboard such a yacht will be many times less comfortable and runs
a much greater risk of injury from being tossed about in a seaway.
On the other hand, a well stabilized yacht allows crewmembers more
comfort, better rest and more of it, especially in heavy weather.  A
crew with injuries or exhausted from lack of rest is a crew on the
verge of making mistakes!

As much as I love Bluewater's active fin stabilizers, I began this
trip knowing that active fin stabilizers had been the Nordhavn
Atlantic Rally's most troublesome mechanical system.  Crossing oceans
is not for wimpy power boats or wimpy stabilizer systems.  In fact,
it's my guess that a single ocean crossing aboard a trawler yacht
probably subjects its active fin stabilization system to more stress
than many stabilizer systems see in a lifetime.  That's one reason we
outfitted Bluewater with a heavy-duty Naiad system designed for
larger yachts than our 47 feet-but then ordered a backup system,
paravanes, as well.  A paravane system requires a lot of rigging and
it's not pretty to the eye of many owners, but as a backup
stabilization system it has a lot going for it because it has no
hydraulic, electrical, or electronic parts to break-the stabilization
comes from towing heavy delta-wing paravanes through the water to
resist rolling  Paravanes will definitely slow a yacht down when
being used; our experience shows a speed loss of about 4/10 of a
knot, something we do not experience with our Naiads.  But in most
cases a more stable oceangoing yacht trumps a faster one.  So
Bluewater continues on, confident that even if the other stabilizer
packs it in, we'll have stabilization all the way to the Azores.  Our
paravanes are stowed in fittings on our transom and our paravane
poles were deployed in the ready position as we departed Bermuda, so
we can launch paravanes in minutes if the need arises.

Our two companion yachts, the N55s Moana Kuewa and Salty Dawg, both
have TRAC stabilizer systems, a brand favored by many Nordhavn
owners.  My own stabilizer experience-virtually all of it-is with
Naiad, and in building Bluewater my decision was to stick with what I
know.  Over more than 15 years of owning Naiads on two yachts I've
had few stabilizer problems.  Anytime I have had a problem, however,
never once has Naiad failed diagnose the problem quickly and get me
up and running in short order.  It my experience it all comes down to
one man: Vic Kuzmovich, former Naiad chief engineer and for the last
15 years or so head of Naiad Florida.  To quote my friend Scott
Flanders, another Naiad fan, Vic is the real deal-he does what he
says and he stands behind his company's products like nobody else.
Vic is my Naiad oracle!

Bluewater's Naiad active fin stabilizer system is still under
warranty, and I spoke with Vic today about the repair.  To a trained
hydraulics guy, our Naiad system is a robust and simple system, and
changing out a potentiometer ought to be a quick and easy task.  To a
shade-tree mechanic like me, however, it's a different matter!  Do I
have the skills to needed change the potentiometer and align it
properly?  Perhaps with detailed instructions and help from
crewmember George, whose mechanical skills leave mine in the slow
lane, and  from Med Bound 2007 Chief Engineer Bernie Francis, whose
principal technical skills are in diesel mechanics, I can pull it off.

Meanwhile, we're rolling along nicely.  To be sure, we're rolling
more than we would with two working fins, but Bluewater's crew
remains a contented one and our loss of a stabilizer fin is best
considered an inconvenience rather than a serious problem.

--Milt, Judy, George and Schipperke Katy

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:27:46 -0400
From: "Dave Cooper" swansong@gmn-usa.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Med Bound 2007 Noon Report - June 18: Stabilizer
problems
To: "'Passagemaking Under Power List'"
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: 00cd01c7b275$9fca9500$990310ac@Dell
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Milt wrote in part: ..... Chief designer Jeff Leishman can give you the
technical side, but the truth is that stability is designed in from the
keel
up, and it's physically impossible for a vessel like this to turn over
(that
is, roll to port or starboard) and not recover.........>

Wow, I have to believe that this is a misprint or misquote. Ether that or
Jim/Milt haven't been to sea long enough to realize that there's a wave out
there that will tear this kind of thinking to shreds.

All small boats can roll over and do given enough time/exposure to the
seas.
Run a bad inlet on the wrong day and you can find this out. Be at sea in a
big storm with confused breaking seas and you can find this out. Been there
done that and have the mental images firmly burned in my mind. When the
part
labeled this side up is down and the bottom facing the sky you have get a
better appreciation of the sea.

Re stabilizers. The active fins seem to be brought up the most often of
issues that turn these passages into more adventuress passages than any
item. Milt mentions the two system that are available. I beg to differ with
him as they may be only two that are available from Nordhavn there are
other
system that are available and work well, IMHO.

Our stabilization tank was filled last August and hasn't been touched
since.
We have had nothing but positive results for it. It works 100% of the time
whether underway or at anchor. It has performed well up to the 12-15' seas
that we have been exposed to at this point. Does it have it limits? I'll
bet
it does but exactly where that might be I don't know. However we have 2 4"
dump valves at each end to unload the 1500 lbs of water in a few seconds if
required when we get pinned down on one side. Our righting moment is every
bit as good as the Nordhavn from our stability tests and inclination tests
that we were required to do before the tank was designed for us. Will Swan
Song roll over??? You bet your a.. it would given the right sea!! Would it
survive a roll? Most likely not as the glass, even at 3/8" and 1/2" isn't
up
to the pressure of a roll, IMO.

We certainly aren't trying to take anything away from Milt and the Med
Cruise. Good on ya all!! Crossing an ocean is tuff stuff in a small boat
and
isn't to be taken lightly.

However, believing stuff like was in Milt's email can lead to having false
expectations which can lead to not taking actions that might well need to
be
taken to deal with deteriorating conditions.

As always YMMV.....
Dave & Nancy
Swan Song
Roughwater 58
Caribbean Cruise '07

Passagemaking-Under-Power Mailing List

End of Passagemaking-Under-Power Digest, Vol 31, Issue 19