I am adding Truetime XL and XLi support to Lady Heather. Pretty much all GPS receivers report sig levels in dBc or SNR type values in the range of around 20 .. 50. The Truetime XLi reports them in dBW with a range of around -196 to -145 dBW). Does anybody know how to convert the dBW values into something more in line with standard dBc or SNR values? The conversion does not need to be exact, it just needs to be reasonable looking...

Since nobody else has stuck their neck out to speculate... I

I do not pretend to know for sure exactly what TrueTime means.

That of course is -166 dBm to -115 dBm

But you know that.

Does anybody know how to convert the dBW values into something more

As I understand the dBc values,  they are the signal power after

This is probably actually calibrated as Eb/No of the despread 50

This of course is a ratio of signal to noise and interference

There is also absolute power per square meter (flux density),

One possible interpretation of what Truetime is using is the

Now in actual reality the effective noise temp of antenna and

I would however expect that the True time dBW numbers would track

This would be related to actual power density/Hz across the signal

In other words at the point where the BER of the 50 baud almanac

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 01:05:21AM +0000, Mark Sims wrote: Since nobody else has stuck their neck out to speculate... I will. I do not pretend to know for sure exactly what TrueTime means. > Pretty much all GPS receivers report sig levels in dBc or SNR type > values in the range of around 20 .. 50. The Truetime XLi reports them > in dBW with a range of around -196 to -145 dBW). That of course is -166 dBm to -115 dBm But you know that. > Does anybody know how to convert the dBW values into something more > in line with standard dBc or SNR values? The conversion does not need > to be exact, it just needs to be reasonable looking... As I understand the dBc values, they are the signal power after despreading of the 50 symbol per second underlying 50 baud BPSK almanac in the appropriate approximately 50 Hz bandwidth it occupies compared to the thermal (or also spread interference) energy in that same bandwidth. Thus 20 dBc would be despread 50 baud BPSK energy 20 db over the noise in the relevant approximately 50 Hz BW (depending on filter rolloff). This is probably actually calibrated as Eb/No of the despread 50 baud almanac signal. This of course is a ratio of signal to noise and interference and not directly related to actual signal power coming out of the antenna which depends on antenna gain, and feed losses and cable losses and so forth. There is also absolute power per square meter (flux density), but any measurement of that would depend on antenna, LNA, filter, cable, GPS receiver front end gains and losses and noise temp which would not in general be the same from installation to installation and a measure of this would require calibration of those things for that installation. One possible interpretation of what Truetime is using is the noise density per root Hz compared to that from a 50 ohm termination at room temperature. Obviously a 50 ohm system terminated in a 50 ohm load has -174 dBm/Hz at 290K and the lower end of their scale at -166 dBm is 8 db above this, which I understand is about the theoretical threshold (BER of 10**-5) for the 50 baud BPSK in Eb/No. What this implies is that despread, the input signal power density/Hz inside the despread signal bandwidth would be -166 dBm/Hz (8 db Eb/No with No being -174 dBm). Now in actual reality the effective noise temp of antenna and filter, and sky and environment and LNA is probably not 290K exactly... I'm not familiar enough with this as respects GPS to be sure what would be considered normal for a typical or even theoretical deployed antenna. I would however expect that the True time dBW numbers would track Eb/No measures on other receivers starting at some base offset... and it seems likely perhaps that the 8 db Eb/No point for other receivers is -166 dBm or -196 dBW on their scale. This would be related to actual power density/Hz across the signal at L1 (or whatever) by the process gain.. 50/1023000 or 43.1 db. In other words at the point where the BER of the 50 baud almanac gets up to around 1 error in 10**5 bits the effective signal power/Hz from the spread GPS signal on a zero gain hemispheric antenna would be (-166 - 43.1) dBm/Hz or -209.1 dBm/Hz But what do I know. Perhaps someone who does will answer. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

     Since nobody else has stuck their neck out to speculate... I

     I do not pretend to know for sure exactly what TrueTime means.

     That of course is -166 dBm to -115 dBm

     But you know that.

Does anybody know how to convert the dBW values into something more

     As I understand the dBc values,  they are the signal power after

     This is probably actually calibrated as Eb/No of the despread 50

     This of course is a ratio of signal to noise and interference

     There is also absolute power per square meter (flux density),

     One possible interpretation of what Truetime is using is the

     Now in actual reality the effective noise temp of antenna and

     I would however expect that the True time dBW numbers would track

     This would be related to actual power density/Hz across the signal

     In other words at the point where the BER of the 50 baud almanac

According to this reference <https://www.navtechgps.com/gnss_facts/> the minimum received power on Earth should be -158.50dBW. According to this XLi manual <http://www.ampere.com.mx/pdf/Manual_XLi.pdf> the expected antenna gain should be between 20 to 36dB, so the reported received signal should have 16dB of uncertainty since there is no command to set the actual antenna gain. On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 1:01 AM David I. Emery <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 01:05:21AM +0000, Mark Sims wrote: > > Since nobody else has stuck their neck out to speculate... I > will. > > I do not pretend to know for sure exactly what TrueTime means. > > > Pretty much all GPS receivers report sig levels in dBc or SNR type > > values in the range of around 20 .. 50. The Truetime XLi reports them > > in dBW with a range of around -196 to -145 dBW). > > That of course is -166 dBm to -115 dBm > > But you know that. > > > Does anybody know how to convert the dBW values into something more > > in line with standard dBc or SNR values? The conversion does not need > > to be exact, it just needs to be reasonable looking... > > As I understand the dBc values, they are the signal power after > despreading of the 50 symbol per second underlying 50 baud BPSK almanac > in the appropriate approximately 50 Hz bandwidth it occupies compared > to the thermal (or also spread interference) energy in that same > bandwidth. Thus 20 dBc would be despread 50 baud BPSK energy 20 db over > the noise in the relevant approximately 50 Hz BW (depending on filter > rolloff). > > This is probably actually calibrated as Eb/No of the despread 50 > baud almanac signal. > > This of course is a ratio of signal to noise and interference > and not directly related to actual signal power coming out of the > antenna which depends on antenna gain, and feed losses and cable losses > and so forth. > > There is also absolute power per square meter (flux density), > but any measurement of that would depend on antenna, LNA, filter, cable, > GPS receiver front end gains and losses and noise temp which would not > in general be the same from installation to installation and a measure > of this would require calibration of those things for that installation. > > One possible interpretation of what Truetime is using is the > noise density per root Hz compared to that from a 50 ohm termination at > room temperature. Obviously a 50 ohm system terminated in a 50 ohm > load has -174 dBm/Hz at 290K and the lower end of their scale at -166 > dBm is 8 db above this, which I understand is about the theoretical > threshold (BER of 10**-5) for the 50 baud BPSK in Eb/No. What this > implies is that despread, the input signal power density/Hz inside the > despread signal bandwidth would be -166 dBm/Hz (8 db Eb/No with No being > -174 dBm). > > Now in actual reality the effective noise temp of antenna and > filter, and sky and environment and LNA is probably not 290K exactly... > I'm not familiar enough with this as respects GPS to be sure what would > be considered normal for a typical or even theoretical deployed antenna. > > I would however expect that the True time dBW numbers would track > Eb/No measures on other receivers starting at some base offset... > and it seems likely perhaps that the 8 db Eb/No point for other receivers > is -166 dBm or -196 dBW on their scale. > > This would be related to actual power density/Hz across the signal > at L1 (or whatever) by the process gain.. 50/1023000 or 43.1 db. > > In other words at the point where the BER of the 50 baud almanac > gets up to around 1 error in 10**5 bits the effective signal power/Hz from > the spread GPS signal on a zero gain hemispheric antenna would be (-166 > - 43.1) dBm/Hz or -209.1 dBm/Hz > > But what do I know. Perhaps someone who does will answer. > > > -- > Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 > "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten > 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in > celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either." > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.