Empathy List Archives

BE

bob england

Fri, Nov 7, 2008 12:04 AM

I suppose we probably do need to decide what "type" of boat we should build,
given all the talk about cats and motorSAILERS. I propose that since this is
the premier passage maker forum that we go with a true to type passage maker.
I like catamarans just fine and I like sailboats to, especially a motorsailer,
but I don't think that is what most folks reading this thread want to see. We
can argue the merits of both forever and not change anyones mind one iota. I
think a monohull, diesel only powered, full displacement vessell is what we
should discuss. Now, lett'er rip, I can take it !!!

I suppose we probably do need to decide what "type" of boat we should build, given all the talk about cats and motorSAILERS. I propose that since this is the premier passage maker forum that we go with a true to type passage maker. I like catamarans just fine and I like sailboats to, especially a motorsailer, but I don't think that is what most folks reading this thread want to see. We can argue the merits of both forever and not change anyones mind one iota. I think a monohull, diesel only powered, full displacement vessell is what we should discuss. Now, lett'er rip, I can take it !!!

JH

John Harris

Fri, Nov 7, 2008 1:32 AM

Bob,

I think your idea and reasons are right on. There are lots of good boats but
this is a PUP discussion.

John Harris

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Bob, I think your idea and reasons are right on. There are lots of good boats but this is a PUP discussion. John Harris -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 433 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

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Jonathan Haas

Fri, Nov 7, 2008 2:02 AM

I've been watching this discussion for a few days now, hoping that it would
find some traction. I'm 59, don't have a boat, but my wife and I are
committed to buying a boat for the first 10 years of retirement. We will sell
our house and move onto the boat full time. We will have somewhere between
$500,000 and $600,000 in cash to buy the boat and a reasonable annual income
from multiple retirement sources. We have been "browsing" boats and
Passagemaker Magazine for years and taking what opportunities we have to
charter boats and get some experience. Our goal is not coastal cruising. We
want to spend 3 years or so in the Caribbean, another 3 years or so in the
Mediterranean, and another 3 years or so in the South Pacific. We have both
traveled extensively around the world and want to take the time to explore in
a leisurely way while we can. Thinking about a boat, we have concluded that
we will want a single engine boat, at least 1000 gal of
fuel, a water maker, air conditioning, stabilizers of some kind. We think
that a 46 ft boat is about the minimum we will want/need for our planned
adventures. So my question for the group is what boat should we be looking
at/for in the next 2-3 years? Not the "perfect passagemaker" but a
"functional/suitable" passagemaker for doing the kind of boating this group is
committed to. Thoughts?

Jonathan Haas

I've been watching this discussion for a few days now, hoping that it would find some traction. I'm 59, don't have a boat, but my wife and I are committed to buying a boat for the first 10 years of retirement. We will sell our house and move onto the boat full time. We will have somewhere between $500,000 and $600,000 in cash to buy the boat and a reasonable annual income from multiple retirement sources. We have been "browsing" boats and Passagemaker Magazine for years and taking what opportunities we have to charter boats and get some experience. Our goal is not coastal cruising. We want to spend 3 years or so in the Caribbean, another 3 years or so in the Mediterranean, and another 3 years or so in the South Pacific. We have both traveled extensively around the world and want to take the time to explore in a leisurely way while we can. Thinking about a boat, we have concluded that we will want a single engine boat, at least 1000 gal of fuel, a water maker, air conditioning, stabilizers of some kind. We think that a 46 ft boat is about the minimum we will want/need for our planned adventures. So my question for the group is what boat should we be looking at/for in the next 2-3 years? Not the "perfect passagemaker" but a "functional/suitable" passagemaker for doing the kind of boating this group is committed to. Thoughts? Jonathan Haas

DC

Douglas Cochrane

Fri, Nov 7, 2008 3:08 AM

Jonathan,

My wife and I recently sold our business and faced many of the same issues
you are asking. I can offer two comments:

Make sure the first boat you buy can be resold easily.
Our second boat is a Nordhavn 46 which suits us very well and meets your
requirements.

If you'd like to discuss our decision making process off-line, give me a
call or drop me a line.

Douglas Cochrane
M/V Four Seasons, N46-70
P.O. Box 752
Yachats, OR 97498
541/913-0632
Douglas_Cochrane@msn.com

-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Haas
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:02 PM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: [PUP] A practical perfect passagemaker

I've been watching this discussion for a few days now, hoping that it would
find some traction. I'm 59, don't have a boat, but my wife and I are
committed to buying a boat for the first 10 years of retirement. We will
sell
our house and move onto the boat full time. We will have somewhere between
$500,000 and $600,000 in cash to buy the boat and a reasonable annual income
from multiple retirement sources. We have been "browsing" boats and
Passagemaker Magazine for years and taking what opportunities we have to
charter boats and get some experience. Our goal is not coastal cruising. We
want to spend 3 years or so in the Caribbean, another 3 years or so in the
Mediterranean, and another 3 years or so in the South Pacific. We have both
traveled extensively around the world and want to take the time to explore
in
a leisurely way while we can. Thinking about a boat, we have concluded that
we will want a single engine boat, at least 1000 gal of
fuel, a water maker, air conditioning, stabilizers of some kind. We think
that a 46 ft boat is about the minimum we will want/need for our planned
adventures. So my question for the group is what boat should we be looking
at/for in the next 2-3 years? Not the "perfect passagemaker" but a
"functional/suitable" passagemaker for doing the kind of boating this group
is
committed to. Thoughts?

Jonathan Haas

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Jonathan, My wife and I recently sold our business and faced many of the same issues you are asking. I can offer two comments: 1) Make sure the first boat you buy can be resold easily. 2) Our second boat is a Nordhavn 46 which suits us very well and meets your requirements. If you'd like to discuss our decision making process off-line, give me a call or drop me a line. Douglas Cochrane M/V Four Seasons, N46-70 P.O. Box 752 Yachats, OR 97498 541/913-0632 Douglas_Cochrane@msn.com -----Original Message----- From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com [mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Haas Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:02 PM To: Passagemaking Under Power List Subject: [PUP] A practical perfect passagemaker I've been watching this discussion for a few days now, hoping that it would find some traction. I'm 59, don't have a boat, but my wife and I are committed to buying a boat for the first 10 years of retirement. We will sell our house and move onto the boat full time. We will have somewhere between $500,000 and $600,000 in cash to buy the boat and a reasonable annual income from multiple retirement sources. We have been "browsing" boats and Passagemaker Magazine for years and taking what opportunities we have to charter boats and get some experience. Our goal is not coastal cruising. We want to spend 3 years or so in the Caribbean, another 3 years or so in the Mediterranean, and another 3 years or so in the South Pacific. We have both traveled extensively around the world and want to take the time to explore in a leisurely way while we can. Thinking about a boat, we have concluded that we will want a single engine boat, at least 1000 gal of fuel, a water maker, air conditioning, stabilizers of some kind. We think that a 46 ft boat is about the minimum we will want/need for our planned adventures. So my question for the group is what boat should we be looking at/for in the next 2-3 years? Not the "perfect passagemaker" but a "functional/suitable" passagemaker for doing the kind of boating this group is committed to. Thoughts? Jonathan Haas _______________________________________________ http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power To unsubscribe send email to passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

M

Mark

Fri, Nov 7, 2008 8:46 AM

--- On Thu, 11/6/08, bob england bob_england@hotmail.com wrote:

I think a monohull, diesel only powered, full displacement
vessell is what we
should discuss. Now, lett'er rip, I can take it !!!

Agree Bob.

Several random thoughts and questions.

Hannu makes some interesting comments about costs of custom boats. Does anyone have any actual experience getting bids on custom boats and can you compare the costs to a comparable production boat? I realize comparable may be tough. I like the idea of using household items - specifically furniture. Maybe it's just being 6'4", but I've never found built-ins to be comfortable. This fellow remodeled the builtins in his salon and I think makes valid points about the design of settees (warning, it's a sailing cat - but the principle applies to any boat) http://www.svroam.com/svroam3_006.htm Personally, I'd leave the space open and just buy a high quality sofa.
My biggest question is about how much of the equipment we need vs are "being sold". The reason that I put it that way is that most PUP vessels I see these days are quite expensive and complicated machines. For comparison I think of the folks I know that have spent significant time passagemaking under sail - typically 10-20 year old solidly designed sailboats that can be purchased for $150-250K, the lower end requiring a bit more fit out before departure. The second data point I use is a fellow that I met in Papeete in '91 after my first passage from California. He had sailed from Acapulco on a 30' wooden ketch, no motor, no refrigeration, all by himself. A local 16 year old is circumnavigating solo on a refitted Islander 36 (not a high end boat by any imagination). Also consider the simplicity of Idlewild (http://idlewildexpedition.ca/pictures/031_boat.htm). Yes, those are some extreme examples, and I do want the comforts of home in my PPM -
however I can't help but think if you did a true engineering analysis of safety, reliability, and livability issues that you'd find much of the cost going into today's passagemakers is misplaced.
not withstanding the above points, the reality is that most of us don't want the hassle of a custom build, and we want something that has market value (read recognized brand) - thus we'll settle for a production vessel and focus on the cruising rather than being arm chair yacht designers. Of course if I can sell my software company I'll start a budget passagemaker business and not care about turning a profit ;-)

Mark
Marina del Rey, CA

--- On Thu, 11/6/08, bob england <bob_england@hotmail.com> wrote: > I think a monohull, diesel only powered, full displacement > vessell is what we > should discuss. Now, lett'er rip, I can take it !!! Agree Bob. Several random thoughts and questions. - Hannu makes some interesting comments about costs of custom boats. Does anyone have any actual experience getting bids on custom boats and can you compare the costs to a comparable production boat? I realize comparable may be tough. I like the idea of using household items - specifically furniture. Maybe it's just being 6'4", but I've never found built-ins to be comfortable. This fellow remodeled the builtins in his salon and I think makes valid points about the design of settees (warning, it's a sailing cat - but the principle applies to any boat) http://www.svroam.com/svroam3_006.htm Personally, I'd leave the space open and just buy a high quality sofa. - My biggest question is about how much of the equipment we need vs are "being sold". The reason that I put it that way is that most PUP vessels I see these days are quite expensive and complicated machines. For comparison I think of the folks I know that have spent significant time passagemaking under sail - typically 10-20 year old solidly designed sailboats that can be purchased for $150-250K, the lower end requiring a bit more fit out before departure. The second data point I use is a fellow that I met in Papeete in '91 after my first passage from California. He had sailed from Acapulco on a 30' wooden ketch, no motor, no refrigeration, all by himself. A local 16 year old is circumnavigating solo on a refitted Islander 36 (not a high end boat by any imagination). Also consider the simplicity of Idlewild (http://idlewildexpedition.ca/pictures/031_boat.htm). Yes, those are some extreme examples, and I do want the comforts of home in my PPM - however I can't help but think if you did a true engineering analysis of safety, reliability, and livability issues that you'd find much of the cost going into today's passagemakers is misplaced. - not withstanding the above points, the reality is that most of us don't want the hassle of a custom build, and we want something that has market value (read recognized brand) - thus we'll settle for a production vessel and focus on the cruising rather than being arm chair yacht designers. Of course if I can sell my software company I'll start a budget passagemaker business and not care about turning a profit ;-) Mark Marina del Rey, CA

RR

Ron Rogers

Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:59 PM

I think that someone suggested that tank testing wasn't that successful an
endeavor. I direct you to the Norwegian designed and built "Abeille Flandre"
salvage tug and her larger successors such as the "Abeille Bourbon." On
YouTube, there was a video juxtapositioning a model of Abeille Flandre and
the actual ship heading into heavy seas. Her motion at sea was identical to
that in the model tank! The only unusual hull feature seems to be her
underwater wasp waist followed by a somewhat flat area aft. Her forefoot is
deep with a bulbous bow.

So I wonder what that same naval architect would do if asked to design a
fuel-efficient passagemaker. One thing I noticed in the YouTube videos: she
is not slowed by the head seas, rather she just goes through them. The new
vogue in offshore drilling service vessels is that they are being built with
reverse shear enclosed bows. Therefore, the forward bulge is at the
waterline and the stem angles back from there in a gentle arc. Seems to
slice waves better.

Ron Rogers

I think that someone suggested that tank testing wasn't that successful an endeavor. I direct you to the Norwegian designed and built "Abeille Flandre" salvage tug and her larger successors such as the "Abeille Bourbon." On YouTube, there *was* a video juxtapositioning a model of Abeille Flandre and the actual ship heading into heavy seas. Her motion at sea was identical to that in the model tank! The only unusual hull feature seems to be her underwater wasp waist followed by a somewhat flat area aft. Her forefoot is deep with a bulbous bow. So I wonder what that same naval architect would do if asked to design a fuel-efficient passagemaker. One thing I noticed in the YouTube videos: she is not slowed by the head seas, rather she just goes through them. The new vogue in offshore drilling service vessels is that they are being built with reverse shear enclosed bows. Therefore, the forward bulge is at the waterline and the stem angles back from there in a gentle arc. Seems to slice waves better. Ron Rogers

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