Wow, this Gull seems to be getting quite a bit of attention, and
deceivingly so!. If you haven't seen it, you should go down to Long
Beach and enjoy it; it is a lovely Gull. I first became interested in
this Gull last March when Donna Caporaso found it. She sent me a
picture of the Gull and I recognized that this Gull was "different". I
went down to Long Beach a few days later in the afternoon after one of
those horrendous storms we had. I found the Gull on the beach way down
beyond the jetty at the west end of the parking lot. I was instantly
captivated by this Gull, and spent many hours observing it in March
and April until it left. When it showed up again last month I
recognized it immediately, now a 2nd cycle.

Today was the eighth visit this Dec. and Jan. I had to Long Beach
studying this Gull. In total I have spent well over 60 hours studying
this one Gull up close focusing very closely on its specific overall
form and structure and most importantly its Gestalt.....which is what
I have trained myself to do for nearly 40 years for my art. I have a
long list of field observations (and nearly 20,000 pictures) for this
Gull that makes me conclude that it "possibly/probably" has features
and influences from two species of Gulls. This is why I (and a list of
others) feel that it is a "possible" hybrid Gull with a larger
influence being Kumlien's Gull. For me, avian form and function, and
species traits are the backbone to my work This was the basis for the
book I wrote called Waterfowl Concepts...Form and Function.

So if this Gull is a Kumlien's Gull, that's great! But I have to
respectfully disagree that this Gull can only be a "classic example"
of a Kumlien's Gull (which is a hybrid BTW). In my opinion it has many
characteristics that offer a possibility of it being a "possible"
hybrid.

There are no guide lines or charts that identify what hybrids should
look like. Hybridization may be more common than recognized because
hybrids may look similar to the parent species and not be recognized
as hybrids. When I raised wild waterfowl, hybrids happened all the
time. Often the fledglings looked obvious what the parent species
were, other times (an often in the same clutch) they would only have a
hint of the parent species or sometimes not at all.

In the end, its just an opinion.....and my opinion is that it is a
lovely and interesting Gull, that is quite unique. But I still believe
it is a "possible" hybrid.

Enjoy the Gull!

Keith Mueller

Quoting Greg Hanisek ghanisek@rep-am.com:

The first line should have read "deservedly" not
"deceivingly"....stupid spell check!!
Sorry!

Quoting kmueller@ntplx.net:

Wow, we actually have a gull thing going on CTBirds:)! Thought I had to go the IDFrontiers to wallow in one of those. Keith is absoluetly right that in this case opinions are a major consideration, because the North America Iceland gulls have always been a matter of much scientific uncertainty. The term "hybrid swarm" has been bandied about to account for their highly variable presence between L. g. glaucoides to the east and Thayer's Gull to the west, with plenty of Herring influence available. The Long Beach bird is definitely interesting and worth looking at (if you're not gull-phobic).

Greg Hanisek

_____  

From: kmueller@ntplx.net
To: ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org
Sent: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:37:27 -0500
Subject: Re: [CT Birds] Long beach Iceland

Wow, this Gull seems to be getting quite a bit of attention, and
deceivingly so!. If you haven't seen it, you should go down to Long
Beach and enjoy it; it is a lovely Gull. I first became interested in
this Gull last March when Donna Caporaso found it. She sent me a
picture of the Gull and I recognized that this Gull was "different". I
went down to Long Beach a few days later in the afternoon after one of
those horrendous storms we had. I found the Gull on the beach way down
beyond the jetty at the west end of the parking lot. I was instantly
captivated by this Gull, and spent many hours observing it in March
and April until it left. When it showed up again last month I
recognized it immediately, now a 2nd cycle.

Today was the eighth visit this Dec. and Jan. I had to Long Beach
studying this Gull. In total I have spent well over 60 hours studying
this one Gull up close focusing very closely on its specific overall
form and structure and most importantly its Gestalt.....which is what
I have trained myself to do for nearly 40 years for my art. I have a
long list of field observations (and nearly 20,000 pictures) for this
Gull that makes me conclude that it "possibly/probably" has features
and influences from two species of Gulls. This is why I (and a list of
others) feel that it is a "possible" hybrid Gull with a larger
influence being Kumlien's Gull. For me, avian form and function, and
species traits are the backbone to my work This was the basis for the
book I wrote called Waterfowl Concepts...Form and Function.

So if this Gull is a Kumlien's Gull, that's great! But I have to
respectfully disagree that this Gull can only be a "classic example"
of a Kumlien's Gull (which is a hybrid BTW). In my opinion it has many
characteristics that offer a possibility of it being a "possible"
hybrid.

There are no guide lines or charts that identify what hybrids should
look like. Hybridization may be more common than recognized because
hybrids may look similar to the parent species and not be recognized
as hybrids. When I raised wild waterfowl, hybrids happened all the
time. Often the fledglings looked obvious what the parent species
were, other times (an often in the same clutch) they would only have a
hint of the parent species or sometimes not at all.

In the end, its just an opinion.....and my opinion is that it is a
lovely and interesting Gull, that is quite unique. But I still believe
it is a "possible" hybrid.

Enjoy the Gull!

Keith Mueller

Quoting Greg Hanisek ghanisek@rep-am.com:

This list is provided by the Connecticut Ornithological Association (COA) for the discussion of birds and birding in Connecticut.
For subscription information visit http://lists.ctbirding.org/mailman/listinfo/ctbirds_lists.ctbirding.org

I remember reviewing photos of this bird last winter without seeing it in
the field. The array of images from various photographers left me
uncomfortable putting a name to it. All I could say for certain was that it
was certainly NOT a Glaucous Gull which was also being mentioned at the
time. Gulls can be very tricky, and I tend to be more conservative than
most when it comes to identifying some of them from photos alone. Field
experience helps. A combination of photos and field experience are best.

Fast forward to this year. I first saw some images of this bird, now in its
second winter, it looked pretty much like an Iceland Gull, but held off
until I went to see the bird. I saw and studied it for the first time on
12/26/13, and both in gestalt and plumage the bird looked bang-on for a
second winter "Kumlien's" Iceland Gull. The only thing about the bird that
did not scream typical Iceland Gull to me was its size - about Herring Gull
size. However male "Kumlien's" Gulls can be quite large. A quick check of
Howell & Dunn puts the American Herring Gull size range at 22-26.3 inches
versus 19-24.5 inches for "Kumlien's" Gull. Therefore, the largest (male)
"Kumlien's" Gulls will sit right in the average size range of our Herring
Gulls.

Yes, gulls are capable of crazy things. They do hybridize, especially the
large white-headed gulls. Is it possible that this bird has some DNA of
some other species? Sure, that's possible. But that's possible with pretty
much every single large gull we see. Based on this information, I don't
really see a reason to talk about a hybrid in regards to this bird since,
IMO, literally everything falls within known range of "Kumlien's" Iceland
Gull. I think that is the point many people are trying to make. If someone
can point out something about this bird that is truly at odds with it being
an Iceland Gull, we would be very interested to hear.

Nick Bonomo
Wallingford, CT
www.shorebirder.com

On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 5:37 PM, kmueller@ntplx.net wrote:

Species and hybrid as concepts make fairly clear sense in many cases, but one wonders here if these are the most helpful categories we have (especially lacking DNA).  Hybrid is a mix of two pure strains, but is there any such thing among these gulls?  (And, are we of European extraction hybrids, given our Neanderthal genes?)

There seem to be some obvious base types, worth talking about, but that's less formal than implied by the terms "species" and "hybrid."  It may help us to discuss these more reasonably.

"Species" as a concept was coined pre-Darwin.  How these sorts of things are to be understood in Darwinian terms is not obvious, especially around the edges.

On Jan 16, 2014, at 6:10 PM, Nick Bonomo nbonomo@gmail.com wrote: