Diesel Fuel system design
Greetings. This has probably already been covered in years past, but
scanning the archives appears to be a chore unless someone would suggest how
to do a global search on the various monthly archive files.
I'm rebuilding an engine room from scratch on a 56' steel trawler (circa
1955). I've spec'd out Racor filters and the ESI polishing system and will
have several manifolds sending fuel from one of assorted fuel tanks to the
various fuel 'users' (main engine, gen set, furnace), and again with their
'return' lines.
My question:
What would be the ideal fittings and hose types I should use? Should I hard
pipe the fuel lines, except for the last little length to the engines? If
so, should this be in copper, stainless?
For fittings, what type do you recommend? Any 'makes' preferred over
others? Is 37 SIC preferred over 45 SAE.or something else completely? Are
these even the preferred terms?
Basically I've got the various items to connect, but need help with what to
connect them with.
Thanks in advance,
Mark
"Black River"
Holland, MI
[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image001.gif]
See the current issue of Passagemaker. Steve D'Antonio has a good
article on just this topic.
Joe Benson
-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
Mark Andrew
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:48 PM
To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: T&T: Diesel Fuel system design
Greetings. This has probably already been covered in years past, but
scanning the archives appears to be a chore unless someone would suggest
how
to do a global search on the various monthly archive files.
I'm rebuilding an engine room from scratch on a 56' steel trawler (circa
1955). I've spec'd out Racor filters and the ESI polishing system and
will
have several manifolds sending fuel from one of assorted fuel tanks to
the
various fuel 'users' (main engine, gen set, furnace), and again with
their
'return' lines.
My question:
What would be the ideal fittings and hose types I should use? Should I
hard
pipe the fuel lines, except for the last little length to the engines?
If
so, should this be in copper, stainless?
For fittings, what type do you recommend? Any 'makes' preferred over
others? Is 37 SIC preferred over 45 SAE.or something else completely?
Are
these even the preferred terms?
Basically I've got the various items to connect, but need help with what
to
connect them with.
Thanks in advance,
Mark
"Black River"
Holland, MI
[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name
of image001.gif]
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Mark,
If you have high speed, I can send you some pics of the fuel control panel I
designed and had installed. I had the tanks built with separate engine fuel
suction and return lines and fuel polishing/transfer/priming suction and
return lines. It's based on 3/8" SS Aeroquip braided lines-- think of the
gearwell of a jet-- and fittings.
I can feed any engine/genset from any tank and return to any of the 4 tanks.
8 x 5 way valves. Ditto the fuel transfer/polishing/priming system.
Machinery fuel supply intakes are 3/4" above tank bottom;
transfer/polishing/bleeding are 1/4" above bottom. I use a Gulf Coast filter
F-1 for polishing. When I polish-- tank suction and return to same tank-- I
use a simple on/off switch. When I transfer-- tank suction and return to a
different tank-- I use a spring powered 1 hour timer to prevent fuel spills.
The Walbro 6802 transfers 43 GPH so I take a WAG and set the timer
accordingly.
My hydraulic steering, propane and RO watermaker high pressure systems use
45d SAE. Fuel is 37.5d JIC. This gives more surface area for contact.
Never've seen an air bubble or a fuel leak.
Each main engine and the genset have 2 x Racor 500's, plumbed in so I can
switch them out underway if the vacuum gets high and change out the filter
at anchor. I use 30m filters because the Floscan FF transducers require no
smaller to prevent "bounces". The F-1-- also with vac gauge-- strains down
to < 1 micron. Racor bowls always contain cherry cider fuel.
Regards,
Larry and Teri
M/V Cigano, 47' Prairie Sundeck Cruiser
Lying: Covington, LA
N 30 26.7
W 90 07.1
Greetings. This has probably already been covered in years past, but
scanning the archives appears to be a chore unless someone would suggest
how
to do a global search on the various monthly archive files.
I'm rebuilding an engine room from scratch on a 56' steel trawler (circa
1955). I've spec'd out Racor filters and the ESI polishing system and
will
have several manifolds sending fuel from one of assorted fuel tanks to the
various fuel 'users' (main engine, gen set, furnace), and again with their
'return' lines.
My question:
What would be the ideal fittings and hose types I should use? Should I
hard
pipe the fuel lines, except for the last little length to the engines? If
so, should this be in copper, stainless?
For fittings, what type do you recommend? Any 'makes' preferred over
others? Is 37 SIC preferred over 45 SAE.or something else completely?
Are
these even the preferred terms?
Basically I've got the various items to connect, but need help with what
to
connect them with.
Thanks in advance,
Mark
"Mark Andrew" msandrew@chartermi.net writes:
I'm rebuilding an engine room from scratch on a 56' steel trawler (circa
1955). I've spec'd out Racor filters and the ESI polishing system and will
have several manifolds sending fuel from one of assorted fuel tanks to the
various fuel 'users' (main engine, gen set, furnace), and again with their
'return' lines.
I've just finished rebuilding a 60 foot trawler, including a complete
rewiring and replumbing of the engine room (you can see some pictures at
www.islandeagle.net, sadly the website is wayyy out of date). She has a
single engine, a single genset, a single heater, and two fuel tanks.
You're going to get a bunch of answers to your query, mine might be a bit
different.
First, I started out with plans much like yours. A supply manifold, a return
manifold, the whole nine yards. I then got some advice from a couple of folks
I trust a lot, including a commercial ship engineer and a Transport Canada
inspector who's also a captain with 35 years of experience. Here are the high
points of my system:
-
No supply manifold. I have a single two way valve that lets me select
between port and starboard tanks. All consumers are fed from that selection.
Dead simple, and it's pretty hard to come up with a real-world example of why
you need a more complex system. -
No return manifold. Again, a simple two-way valve which let you return to
either port and starboard tanks. -
A real transfer and polishing pump. I used a Jabsco centrifugal pump rated
at about 250 GPH. Way better than a fuel pump. It's on a timer and runs
through a set of Racor 1000s. -
Separate supply and transfer ports in the tanks. The supply lines exit 6"
above the bottom of the tank, the transfer ports are located at the very
bottom. Polishing will catch the gunk long before it gets to the supply ports. -
Coast Guard approved fuel hose with JIC fittings. I used Parker hose with
Parker field-attachable fittings (steel, not brass). This is not cheap,
usually. I got mine on eBay at about a 80% discount. It's been perfect so
far. Hydraulic hose will work perfectly well, for less money, but you will
never be able to use your boat for passengers. Something to consider. -
I used Racor 1000s for the main and Racor 500s for the genset and furnace.
Overkill, but I picked the whole bunch up on eBay for a good price. One word
of advise, don't forget that the Racors need very special o-ring boss
connectors. -
One last little tip: based on advise from a friend, I put in a bypass
running from the outlet of the transfer pump to the inlet of the main engine
filters. By turning on the transfer pump and closing the tank valves, I can
prime the main engine just by cracking the bleed screw of the secondary
filter. Works like a charm. I've also added another valve and hose to the
transfer pump so I can fill jerry cans (I have a diesel in one of my dinghys).
Hope this helps. More details are here:
http://www.islandeagle.net/systems/fuel
Scott Welch
Product Manager, FirstClass Group
"If we continue to take an eye for an eye, then surely the whole world will
go blind." - Gandhi
Mark,
Sounds like quite a project. Tell us more about the boat when you get the chance.
Copper fuel lines are probably what you want to use. Steel will rust, and stainless, besides
being pricy, is harder to get a good seal with tube fittings. Flares take a good bit of skill to
get right, so avoid them and use regular tube fittings that compress on the outside of the tubing
with a soft metal sleeve. Sure-seal is one good brand, and they are available at McMaster-Carr.
I happen to prefer pipe thread for the other parts, rather than flares, but that's probably just
because I have more experience woth them, and I like to use a teflon pipe-dope on the threads.
What is used on the present fuel system? Some of the old fittings are probably reuseable, so this
might be a consideration.
Mark Richter, M.E. trawler-yacht Winnie the Pooh
Mark's Mobile Marine, Electrical system design, installation, repair.
Ortona, FL on the Okeechobee Waterway
I recently sent the message below...got some great advise. One person had
followed up with a link to their site where they had a complete schematic of
their fuel system, including their polishing system. Somehow I misplaced
the message and link. Could you resend. I thought I had set it aside to
take a very close look at it, but evidently set it aside too well.
Mark Andrew
"Black River", 56' Steel
Holland, MI
-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Andrew
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:48 PM
To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: T&T: Diesel Fuel system design
Greetings. This has probably already been covered in years past, but
scanning the archives appears to be a chore unless someone would suggest how
to do a global search on the various monthly archive files.
I'm rebuilding an engine room from scratch on a 56' steel trawler (circa
1955). I've spec'd out Racor filters and the ESI polishing system and will
have several manifolds sending fuel from one of assorted fuel tanks to the
various fuel 'users' (main engine, gen set, furnace), and again with their
'return' lines.
My question:
What would be the ideal fittings and hose types I should use? Should I hard
pipe the fuel lines, except for the last little length to the engines? If
so, should this be in copper, stainless?
For fittings, what type do you recommend? Any 'makes' preferred over
others? Is 37 SIC preferred over 45 SAE.or something else completely? Are
these even the preferred terms?
Basically I've got the various items to connect, but need help with what to
connect them with.
Thanks in advance,
Mark
"Black River"
Holland, MI
[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of
image001.gif]
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Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
"Mark Andrew" msandrew@chartermi.net writes:
I recently sent the message below...got some great advise. One person had
followed up with a link to their site where they had a complete schematic of
their fuel system, including their polishing system. Somehow I misplaced
the message and link. Could you resend. I thought I had set it aside to
take a very close look at it, but evidently set it aside too well.
That would be me, see http://www.islandeagle.net/systems/fuel
Scott Welch
FirstClass Product Manager
www.firstclass.com
Those who make no mistake rarely make anything.
Greetings Scott, thanks for resending the link to your site. I've poured
over your schematic to understand your method. What you did is so close to
what I need to do, that it is very helpful.
A couple differences in our situations, tho. My boat is 56', a bit shorter
than yours, I assume from the photo. It used to have a Kahlenberg Diesel
engine 6' tall and 10' long in the engine room (1/3 of the lower deck area).
The engine is now sitting in a marine museum, and was replaced with a Cat
3306 and an added 500 gal fuel tank running fore and aft in the middle of
the engine room. When we started the renovation, we decided to use half the
original engine room as a master cabin (yes it was that big). We cut off a
couple feet of that 500 gal fuel tank and spun it 90 degrees so it sits
athwarstships now between the two original wing tanks (450 gal each). That
left a big cavity in the forward end of the engine room for the master cabin
(we had already removed the two old gen sets in the fore of the engine
room). The original Kahlenberg also ate oil at a tremendous rate, so there
were two 50gal lube oil tanks on one side of the engine room, too. So this
leads to where our engine room differs..
.the lube oil tanks will now become joined into one 100 gal day tank
(cleanest fuel, next to be burned), the original wing tanks, and the added
(but reduced) "middle" tank for a total of 4 tanks (about 1,400 gal total).
So instead of having a separate T-throw valve to take from either Port or
Starboard tanks as in your scenario, I'm having manifolds made up. One will
have inputs from all the tanks, and 3 outputs to the engine, gen set,
furnace thru individual Racor 30m filters (the engine getting a dual, like
yours). The other manifold will have inputs from all the tanks, but then
run to the polishing system thru its 30 micron filter.
For returns, there are again two manifolds, one for the 'users' and another
for the polishing system.
I haven't yet, but need to include a way to transfer fuel to the day tank.
I then plan to most often take from the day tank to the 'users'. (Maybe the
polishing system is a good independent way to transfer from any tank and
return to any other tank [and clean, to boot!], say to move fuel to the day
tank from any tank)
I didn't think of a drain.good idea.
The original Stbd and Port wing tanks have a big 'equalizer' tube between
them, so they fall at the same rate, but valved so they can be isolated, if
necessary.
It appears from your schematic that you use your polishing pump to prime the
'users' filters, and perhaps even to bleed the 'users' when necessary. Once
you're primed, or bled, do you then throw P1 to close and S1 to open? Is
that how it works? Are S1 and your 'priming T' both below the wing tanks in
order to gravity feed after priming?
In my situation, I almost have to put my filters at eye level, so I was
thinking of a small lift pump (Jabsco Junior Gear Puppy, for example) to use
to prime my filters and bleed my 'user' lines. ( I have a follow up question
on this that I'll post separately)
Anyway, these are a few of my thoughts/plans. If anything jumps out at you
from your experience, feel free to set me straight or have me consider
another alternative.
By the way, nice boat.love the lines.
Mark
From: Scott H.E. Welch [mailto:scott@firstclass.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 8:57 AM
To: Scott H.E. Welch
Cc: Mark Andrew; trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: T&T: Diesel Fuel system design
"Mark Andrew" msandrew@chartermi.net writes:
I recently sent the message below...got some great advise. One person had
followed up with a link to their site where they had a complete schematic of
their fuel system, including their polishing system. Somehow I misplaced
the message and link. Could you resend. I thought I had set it aside to
take a very close look at it, but evidently set it aside too well.
That would be me, see http://www.islandeagle.net/systems/fuel
Scott Welch
FirstClass Product Manager
www.firstclass.com
Those who make no mistake rarely make anything.