Empathy List Archives

LB

L. Bruce Jones

Fri, Feb 15, 2008 6:44 AM

I've been building diesel electric submarines for 15 years now. For
our applications we typically use direct drive diesels with shunt
wound motor generators attached to the drive system so that we can
charge batteries while underway on the surface and then proceed under
battery power when submerged.

The arrangement is sensible, robust and reliable and for submarines,
we have no cost effective alternatives.

I don't believe that there are any advantages to a diesel electric
system installed in surface vessels less than 500 tons. For that
application they are overly complex and certainly not cost effective.

In my view, twin appropriately sized engines with a single shaft
cannot be beat for redundance, power flexibility, efficiency and
safety. A large shaft coupled generator and large battery bank can be
used to significant advantage for long periods of power, including
air conditioning, without having to revert to running a generator.

---=====
L. Bruce Jones U.S. SUBMARINES, INC.
President POSEIDON UNDERSEA RESORTS LLC
Tel: 208/687-9057 Fax: 208/441-7478
E-mail: bruce@ussubmarines.com http://ussubs.com
http://poseidonresorts.com

"Design, engineering and construction of submarines and submersibles"
"Developing the world's first sea floor resort."

---=====

I've been building diesel electric submarines for 15 years now. For our applications we typically use direct drive diesels with shunt wound motor generators attached to the drive system so that we can charge batteries while underway on the surface and then proceed under battery power when submerged. The arrangement is sensible, robust and reliable and for submarines, we have no cost effective alternatives. I don't believe that there are any advantages to a diesel electric system installed in surface vessels less than 500 tons. For that application they are overly complex and certainly not cost effective. In my view, twin appropriately sized engines with a single shaft cannot be beat for redundance, power flexibility, efficiency and safety. A large shaft coupled generator and large battery bank can be used to significant advantage for long periods of power, including air conditioning, without having to revert to running a generator. -- ======================================================================= L. Bruce Jones U.S. SUBMARINES, INC. President POSEIDON UNDERSEA RESORTS LLC Tel: 208/687-9057 Fax: 208/441-7478 E-mail: bruce@ussubmarines.com http://ussubs.com http://poseidonresorts.com "Design, engineering and construction of submarines and submersibles" "Developing the world's first sea floor resort." =======================================================================

RR

Ron Rogers

Fri, Feb 15, 2008 2:52 PM

How are they joined - a big gearbox? Can you run on one engine easily as Ken
desires?

Ron Rogers

----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Bruce Jones" bruce@ussubmarines.com
|
| In my view, twin appropriately sized engines with a single shaft
| cannot be beat for redundance, power flexibility, efficiency and
| safety. A large shaft coupled generator and large battery bank can be
| used to significant advantage for long periods of power, including
| air conditioning, without having to revert to running a generator.

How are they joined - a big gearbox? Can you run on one engine easily as Ken desires? Ron Rogers ----- Original Message ----- From: "L. Bruce Jones" <bruce@ussubmarines.com> | | In my view, twin appropriately sized engines with a single shaft | cannot be beat for redundance, power flexibility, efficiency and | safety. A large shaft coupled generator and large battery bank can be | used to significant advantage for long periods of power, including | air conditioning, without having to revert to running a generator.

V

VANNHANDEL

Fri, Feb 15, 2008 2:59 PM

http://www.scel.no/ses/catalog/

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 15. februar 2008 15:53

How are they joined - a big gearbox? Can you run on one engine easily as Ken

desires?

Ron Rogers

http://www.scel.no/ses/catalog/ -----Original Message----- Sent: 15. februar 2008 15:53 How are they joined - a big gearbox? Can you run on one engine easily as Ken desires? Ron Rogers

RR

Ron Rogers

Fri, Feb 15, 2008 3:47 PM

Bruce said, "In my view, twin appropriately sized engines with a single
shaft
cannot be beat for redundancy, power flexibility, efficiency and
safety."

I thought he was referring to a mechanical linkage involving diesels only -
no motive electricity. I once saw such a massive gearbox being built for a
USCG cutter at Avondale Shipyard outside New Orleans.

Ron Rogers

----- Original Message -----
From: "VANNHANDEL" post@vannhandel.no

| http://www.scel.no/ses/catalog/

Bruce said, "In my view, twin appropriately sized engines with a single shaft cannot be beat for redundancy, power flexibility, efficiency and safety." I thought he was referring to a mechanical linkage involving diesels only - no motive electricity. I once saw such a massive gearbox being built for a USCG cutter at Avondale Shipyard outside New Orleans. Ron Rogers ----- Original Message ----- From: "VANNHANDEL" <post@vannhandel.no> | http://www.scel.no/ses/catalog/

PP

Peter Pisciotta

Fri, Feb 15, 2008 4:47 PM

Bruce said, "In my view, twin appropriately sized
engines with a single
shaft
cannot be beat for redundancy, power flexibility,
efficiency and
safety."

I was aboard a WWII Navy Yard Tug several years ago
that had been converted to private use. Most of the
original running gear was intact. In the center of the
engine room was a massive transmission driving a
single shaft. The transmission had 4 faceplates, each
capable of bolting up a GMC 671: two forward of the
gear, two aft. These old jimmy's were available in
mirror images so twin engine installations could be
paired to ensure access to service points (gee, what a
concept...). On this boat, there were two installed,
with the engines so close you could barely get a piece
of paper between them.

The vessel could run on one or both engines, the owner
normally ran on just one, alternating them to even out
hours. The boat was also equipped with 2 generators,
both of which were flavors of GMC x-71 (a 2-71 and a
3-71 as I recall) so many parts were interchangeable.
Very sensible.

Thinking back, I have to wonder if we've really
improved much over the past 60 years.

Peter
Willard 36

> Bruce said, "In my view, twin appropriately sized > engines with a single > shaft > cannot be beat for redundancy, power flexibility, > efficiency and > safety." I was aboard a WWII Navy Yard Tug several years ago that had been converted to private use. Most of the original running gear was intact. In the center of the engine room was a massive transmission driving a single shaft. The transmission had 4 faceplates, each capable of bolting up a GMC 671: two forward of the gear, two aft. These old jimmy's were available in mirror images so twin engine installations could be paired to ensure access to service points (gee, what a concept...). On this boat, there were two installed, with the engines so close you could barely get a piece of paper between them. The vessel could run on one or both engines, the owner normally ran on just one, alternating them to even out hours. The boat was also equipped with 2 generators, both of which were flavors of GMC x-71 (a 2-71 and a 3-71 as I recall) so many parts were interchangeable. Very sensible. Thinking back, I have to wonder if we've really improved much over the past 60 years. Peter Willard 36

FO

Frank Osborne

Fri, Feb 15, 2008 5:37 PM

Bruce said, "In my view, twin appropriately sized engines with a single
shaft cannot be beat for redundancy, power flexibility, efficiency and
safety."

There is a Beebe designed 50' Knight & Carver passagemaker for sale in
Portland OR that has twin Perkins stacked on top of each other that have
belts driving a shaft into a single transmission. You can run on both
engines or either one by moving levers on the side of the engine cage.
It's quite a setup and if your in the Portland area the boat is worth
looking at. The broker is very friendly and willing to show the boat.
It's been on the market for over a year and would be a great long range
passagemaker at a very reasonable cost.

--
Frank Osborne
Discovery N46-37
Home Port: Anacortes, WA

Bruce said, "In my view, twin appropriately sized engines with a single shaft cannot be beat for redundancy, power flexibility, efficiency and safety." There is a Beebe designed 50' Knight & Carver passagemaker for sale in Portland OR that has twin Perkins stacked on top of each other that have belts driving a shaft into a single transmission. You can run on both engines or either one by moving levers on the side of the engine cage. It's quite a setup and if your in the Portland area the boat is worth looking at. The broker is very friendly and willing to show the boat. It's been on the market for over a year and would be a great long range passagemaker at a very reasonable cost. -- Frank Osborne Discovery N46-37 Home Port: Anacortes, WA

SE

Scott E. Bulger

Sat, Feb 16, 2008 1:51 AM

Another thing to attach to the shaft is a turbine style pump and shroud that
will evacuate the water from a flooding bilge. I believe these are very
cost effective and as long as the engine is making RPM's it will move a
tremendous amount of water out of a hull. I've heard the only downside is a
whirring noise that's always present as the turbine blades spin in the open
cavity.

Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA
Currently in Oaxaca MX

Another thing to attach to the shaft is a turbine style pump and shroud that will evacuate the water from a flooding bilge. I believe these are very cost effective and as long as the engine is making RPM's it will move a tremendous amount of water out of a hull. I've heard the only downside is a whirring noise that's always present as the turbine blades spin in the open cavity. Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA Currently in Oaxaca MX

RR

Ron Rogers

Sat, Feb 16, 2008 3:33 AM

I wondered about this pump which fits around the shaft. To my way of
thinking, our trawler shafts don't turn fast enough to attain the advertised
gpm. For example, my max shaft rpm is 900.

Ron Rogers
1985 Willard 40FBS
AIRBORNE
Lying Washington, NC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott E. Bulger" scottebulger@gmail.com

| Another thing to attach to the shaft is a turbine style pump and shroud
that
| will evacuate the water from a flooding bilge. I believe these are very
| cost effective and as long as the engine is making RPM's it will move a
| tremendous amount of water out of a hull.

I wondered about this pump which fits around the shaft. To my way of thinking, our trawler shafts don't turn fast enough to attain the advertised gpm. For example, my max shaft rpm is 900. Ron Rogers 1985 Willard 40FBS AIRBORNE Lying Washington, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott E. Bulger" <scottebulger@gmail.com> | Another thing to attach to the shaft is a turbine style pump and shroud that | will evacuate the water from a flooding bilge. I believe these are very | cost effective and as long as the engine is making RPM's it will move a | tremendous amount of water out of a hull.

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Diesel electric