Fog Signals Discontinued
A quick look at the Local Notice to Mariners for District 13 shows that the
Coast Guard is removing many fog signals, like Destruction Island, Tatoosh
Island, etc. The stated reason is that they are no longer needed for safe
navigation. You should assume that this process is going on in other
districts, which likely means yours.
These fog signals and other buoys which the Coast Guard are removing have
been in place for decades and have come to be relied upon by small vessel
operators. It would not surprise me if nearly every such aid was eventually
removed, as the process has been going on for at least a decade. It is
pretty obvious that the CG wants out of this business, what with their
handguns and big ships chasing down high seas varmints, which is a lot more
sexy than maintaining buoys, lights and fog signals.
Eventually the voters are going to have to raise a fuss and have the nav
aids and search and rescue operations moved out of the homeland security
department where they will die if left to the brass in Washington DC.
Regards,
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Tualatin(Portland), Oregon
Quoting Mike Maurice mikem@yachtsdelivered.com:
A quick look at the Local Notice to Mariners for District 13 shows that the
Coast Guard is removing many fog signals,
snip<<<<<>
Eventually the voters are going to have to raise a fuss and have the nav
aids and search and rescue operations moved out of the homeland security
department where they will die if left to the brass in Washington DC.
REPLY
Playing devil's advocate for the moment I would like to point out that Canada
has been eliminating these traditional nav aids for over a decade.
While the process began almost 25 years ago with the automation of light houses
and solarization of minor lights, the trend gained momentum after the
widespread acceptance of GPS. Removal of SA added more emphasis to the process.
So far the accident statistics do not support the argument that these aids or
their removal has changed anything concerning the number of loss of life.
Canada does not have a Homeland Defense department so this aspect has no
bearing on the process. Cost of maintenance and tax payers demands for fiscal
belt tightening is the main driving force.
Is the presence of a fog hor really a safety factor or is it more of a flag and
motherhood type issue? We all associate the sound of a fog horn with the
traditions of the sea and such. But do we trust the sound of th 4ehornm or our
GPS when it comes to the ccrunch. < grin >
Arild
Arild, agree with all you say on the topic. Similar to the situation before
it when the U.S. pulled out all its low-band non-directional radio signal
antennas, to convert them to broadcast DGPS correction signals. I also
changed the title since "fog signals" are what ships and boats send out with
their horns. I think fog horns is more to the point.
Actually the vast majority of U.S. former lighthouses have been adopted by
non-profit organizations who have refurbished them and conduct tours.
Several nearby to us are run as bed-and-breakfast inns.
Bob Peterson
47' Lien Hwa CMY
"Lopaka Nane"
San Francisco
-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
elnav@uniserve.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 10:30 AM
To: Mike Maurice
Cc: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: T&T: Fog Signals Discontinued
Quoting Mike Maurice mikem@yachtsdelivered.com:
A quick look at the Local Notice to Mariners for District 13 shows
that the Coast Guard is removing many fog signals,
snip<<<<<>
Eventually the voters are going to have to raise a fuss and have the
nav aids and search and rescue operations moved out of the homeland
security department where they will die if left to the brass in Washington
DC.
REPLY
Playing devil's advocate for the moment I would like to point out that
Canada has been eliminating these traditional nav aids for over a decade.
While the process began almost 25 years ago with the automation of light
houses and solarization of minor lights, the trend gained momentum after the
widespread acceptance of GPS. Removal of SA added more emphasis to the
process.
So far the accident statistics do not support the argument that these aids
or their removal has changed anything concerning the number of loss of life.
Canada does not have a Homeland Defense department so this aspect has no
bearing on the process. Cost of maintenance and tax payers demands for
fiscal belt tightening is the main driving force.
Is the presence of a fog hor really a safety factor or is it more of a flag
and motherhood type issue? We all associate the sound of a fog horn with the
traditions of the sea and such. But do we trust the sound of th 4ehornm or
our GPS when it comes to the ccrunch. < grin >
Arild
elnav@uniserve.com
At 10:30 AM 11/24/04 -0800, you wrote:
traditions of the sea and such. But do we trust the sound of th 4ehornm
or our
GPS when it comes to the ccrunch. < grin >
Arild,
Your comments are pretty much on track, but overlooks the really small
craft, the 8-18 foot kicker boats, who often have no GPS and no charts.
There will be an increase in accidents amongst this group, that you can
count on. This includes the cruiser boat's dinghy. Better carry a GPS and a
chart for it.
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Tualatin(Portland), Oregon
I have left Neah Bay many times in the early morning to "make the turn
south" when there has been a lot of fog. You can bet I use every tool in
the box and that includes listening for fog signals. This has nothing to do
with traditions of the sea or flag and motherhood. It has to do with
maintaining a proper lookout. This will just mean one less tool in the box.
I don't know the Coast Guard's budget or priority list. I do know that this
should not be lightly regarded.
Captain Todd Mains
Portland, OR
Quoting Mike Maurice mikem@yachtsdelivered.com:
Arild,
Your comments are pretty much on track, but overlooks the really small
craft, the 8-18 foot kicker boats, who often have no GPS and no charts.
There will be an increase in accidents amongst this group, that you can
count on. This includes the cruiser boat's dinghy. Better carry a GPS and a
chart for it.
REPLY
Fair comment! But that begs the question of what is a small ( under 18 foot)
vessel doing out on open water in conditions of fog and restricted visibility.
Answer: If manned by competent sailors who know what they are doing, nothing
to worry about. But if such a vessel is out there under conditione wher a fog
horn on a light house is required, and the vessel operator is a fool, then no
amount of old or new technology will suffice to save them from their own folly.
I have been known to operate a 16 foot sailboat uynder pea soup fog conditions.
I was trying to prove a poiunt to my wife who was scared of such coinditions.
We proceeded away from the harbour mouth for one minute. MAde a 90degree
course change and travelled for one more minute, turned again, etc.
With no wind and negligble wind and current naturally we arrived back at the
seabuoy at teh harbour mouth.
In that same lake I have been hailed by boat operators in 16 - 20 foot craft on
a bright sunny day and the occupants have said they wer lost and could I tell
them how to get home. < grin > Duh!!!
Certainly, I would reply and looking a the rental shop name on teh hull and
oarsk etc I would know exactly where they should be going. Usually a
destination within plain sight.
The point! Fog horns are no better or worse than any other technology but the
cost of maintaining fog horsn at ligh thouses often exceed $100,000 per year.
And as you all know fog can play tricks with the direction you percieve it
comes from.
Cheers
Arild
Quoting Todd Mains TKMains@ipns.com:
I have left Neah Bay many times in the early morning to "make the turn
south" when there has been a lot of fog. You can bet I use every tool in
the box and that includes listening for fog signals.
Captain Todd Mains
Portland, OR
REPLY
But are you saying that you would decline to make that same trip just because
the fog horn was not working? Or would you simply fall back on other means to
verify your position?
Arild
Quoting Todd Mains TKMains@ipns.com:
I have left Neah Bay many times in the early morning to "make the turn
south" when there has been a lot of fog. You can bet I use every tool in
the box and that includes listening for fog signals.
Captain Todd Mains
Portland, OR
REPLY
But are you saying that you would decline to make that same trip just because
the fog horn was not working? Or would you simply fall back on other means to
verify your position?
Arild
But are you saying that you would decline to make that same trip just
because the fog horn was not working? Or would you simply fall back on
other means to verify your position?
Arild
ANSWER
The latter. However, having fewer "other means to verify your position" and
separating navigational aids other radar targets, increases the risk.
Todd
A few years ago I was crossing the Straights of Juan De Fuca in Wa. when an
old power boat suddenly changed course and headed in my direction. The boat
came along side and this hippy looking guy said "hey man, I'm trying to find
Port Townsend and I don't have a frigging idea where it is". I gave him
directions of course and he left. This was on a clear, mild sunny day.
Scary. I would not like to meet him in the fog.
Brent
IDA B
Willard 30
-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com]On Behalf Of
elnav@uniserve.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 1:48 PM
To: Mike Maurice
Cc: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: T&T: Fog Signals Discontinued
Quoting Mike Maurice mikem@yachtsdelivered.com:
Arild,
Your comments are pretty much on track, but overlooks the really small
craft, the 8-18 foot kicker boats, who often have no GPS and no charts.
There will be an increase in accidents amongst this group, that you can
count on. This includes the cruiser boat's dinghy. Better carry a GPS and
a
chart for it.
International. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
Wednesday, November 24, 2004, 4:52:01 PM, Brent wrote:
B> A few years ago I was crossing the Straights of Juan De Fuca in Wa. when an
B> old power boat suddenly changed course and headed in my direction. The boat
B> came along side and this hippy looking guy said "hey man, I'm trying to find
B> Port Townsend and I don't have a frigging idea where it is". I gave him
B> directions of course and he left. This was on a clear, mild sunny day.
B> Scary. I would not like to meet him in the fog.
B> Brent
B> IDA B
B> Willard 30
I once heard a commercial fisherman ask Vancouver Coast Guard on VHF how to get from Thrasher Rock to Sand Heads (some 20 miles across Georgia Strait). On another occasion, another commercial fisherman in a 60 ft or so trawler got into the sand banks off Sea Island (a well-charted area), and had to be led out by someone in an inflatable.
--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Lien Hwa 28 (AKA Polaris 30) "Sea Spray"
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca
Is the presence of a fog hor really a safety factor or is it more of a flag and
motherhood type issue? We all associate the sound of a fog horn with the
traditions of the sea and such. But do we trust the sound of th 4ehornm or our
GPS when it comes to the ccrunch.
Arild
Reply:
Sometimes old traditions die hard. I like GPS and have a good backup GPS
that operates on batteries. Predominately where I operate there are no
foghorns. If the fog comes, all electronics are on and a plot gets
started so we could go to DR if necessary. We keep very busy watching
and listening to everything and go slower. My tools to watch are two
GPSs, two depthfinders, loran, radar, charts, and the local VTS
channels on VHF. Of course the automatic fog horn is on, and one or more
of us will look out the windows. What more can I do except to try to
stay out of it in the first place.
Regards, Bob
foghorns. If the fog comes, all electronics are on and a plot gets
started so we could go to DR if necessary. We keep very busy watching and
listening to
It is pretty obvious that some of you just don't get it. It is not the fog
horns that are the problem. It is the scuttling of the entire nav aids
system that is going on. The fog horns were just an example. And under the
circumstances, I won't waste my time with a detailed list.
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Tualatin(Portland), Oregon
Quoting Mike Maurice mikem@yachtsdelivered.com:
It is pretty obvious that some of you just don't get it. It is not the fog
horns that are the problem. It is the scuttling of the entire nav aids
system that is going on. The fog horns were just an example.
REPLY
Although ther are differences, ther are also a lot of similarities between the
US and Canada when it comes to navigation aids.
Almost a decade ago Canada began this process of dismantling the visual nav aid
system for selected area.
At present the official policy is that visual nav aids will only be maintained
within 10 miles of a port of destination. Beyond that range mariners are
expected to rely on modern electronic navigation systems.
This transformation came about for two reasons.
The Coast Guard conducted several surveys to ascertain who used what nav aids
and to what extent. A secondary issue was to determine the relative use of
visual aural ( foghorn) and electronic means.
The survey revealed that the majroity of recreational boaters seldom ventured
out in conditions of reduced visibility. Only a smal maniority did ventuer out
some times. Commercial fishing boats usually had a wealth of electronic
equipment and relied primarily on these since it was better than any visual
means. Commercial shipping - large vessels - were complaint with IMOI and
SOLAS conventions and also releied mostly on electronic navigation.
When withon ten miles of a port of destination these deep sea vessels usually
had a pilot on board who posessed specific local knowledge and thus also did
not rely on the established visual aids to navigation.
Fog horns came in very low on the priority list fir any of the various
navigation groups.
The second issue pertained to cost recovery for service renderd to the maritime
users. When the domestic commercial shipping companeis were notified of steep
increases in user fees to the Coasst Guard they protested that rather than pay
these increased fees they would prefer to have the nav aids removed since they
did not use them anyways.
For instance in the St. Lawrence Seaway all the buoys are removed for the ice
season. These are given their annual maintenance work at this time and
reinstalled in the spring. However shipping interests continued to run the St
Lawrence seaway despite the absence of visual nav aids without incident.
The conclusion was that the comemercial vessel simply did not need them.
Gradually over the past five to ten years most nav aids have been privatized
so that the local harbour who benefits from their placedment carries the cost
of maintenance. They in turn can then levy a direct user fee on those vessels
that call upon the harbour. FRom time to time it has even been discussed that
the ide be extended to recreational crafft but practical consideratiosn
prevailked and no one has been dumb enough to try it on for size.
In Georgian Bay a cottage association paid for the survey and the annual
maintenanace to place an offshore small craft channel.
So much of Canadian waterways do not have any nav aids that many of us take it
for granted and we find other ways to navigate than rely on fog horsn light
houses or even minor lights. Day marks suffice in much of the small craft
channels ande radar, depth sounders and GPS does a pretty good job for the
rest.
As for the rest who do not bother to learn how to use modern navigation
techniques, let Darwin's principles prevail. < grin >
BTW I love fog horns and have all sorts of pictuers and model sof them.
We even have an large model complete with a working light and electronic
recording of the sounds.
But a fog horn is as much of an anachronism as the taff rail log and the hand
lead line I keep on my nautical nick nack shelf. Its right next to the Viking
Sun stone compass and the sun dial. < grin >
Arild
New England certainly gets its fair share of fog. My take is shutting down
fog horns is reasonable since every 8' dinghy can afford a GPS. Block
Island fog can distort a fog signal so bad you have no idea where the horn
is. Back in the 60s it was a big deal, but I wouldn't worry about it today.
Regards....
Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V Curmudgeon MT-44TC
Currently moored in Vero Beach, FL.
Quoting Mike Maurice mikem@yachtsdelivered.com:
Arild,
Your comments are pretty much on track, but overlooks the really small
craft, the 8-18 foot kicker boats, who often have no GPS and no charts.
There will be an increase in accidents amongst this group, that you can
count on.
REPLY
Do you mean liek the drunk who stole a boat at Ilwaco marina then ran aground
opposite the Coast Guard base and tried to swim for it. <grin>
The outgoin gtime almost drowned him befoer a 25 foot response craft coul dpick
him up. Thsi despite the fact the station stafff observed the gounding and
responded very quickly.
FRankly I don't think even a fog horn could help this guy!
Arild