I'm sure many on this list will have had bad experiences with eBay and/or Paypal. I've had a fair few myself, but the following is the single largest loss I have incurred, and was when buying directly from Agilent - not some reseller of Agilent equipment. The only winners are eBay and Paypal, with myself and Agilent both losing money. I will lose £452.90 (around $720 USD). I don't know how much Agilent have lost, but I suspect it is more than me. As an individual buyer, not part of a large company, the £452.90 will effect me more than it does a multi-billion dollar company like Agilent. The eBay seller was "agilentused", which is Agilent selling some of their reconditioned (CertiPrime) items via eBay. Brief details are: * On the 4th September I purchased an N9923A portable vector network analyzer via Agilent from eBay. The purchase price was $17,736 (USD). * The transaction was paid via Paypal. Since I live in the UK, I had to pay Paypal £11463.74 (GBP). Obviously Paypal charge commission in converting my GBP to USD. * Just over a month later the VNA arrived from Agilent. The auction clearly stated the item would be dispatched from Malasia about 3 weeks after payment was received, so I was not surprised by this long shipment time. * The VNA arrived, and I was initially very pleased with it. It was clearly reconditioned to a high standard, with a new battery, new power supply, new manual, new case etc. The scratches which were on the unit were *very* minor. * I had various issues with this VNA - both a hardware fault and firmware bugs. The details are pretty irrelevant, but I would say the support from Agilent, especially from Afsi Moaveni, who supports this product, was excellent. * Agilent advised me the VNA needed to be returned for repair, as they suspected a system board needed replacing. * But given my concerns over the number of firmware bugs, for what should have been a mature product (released 2-3 years ago), I requested a refund. * Agilent agreed to a refund. * Agilent arranged for the VNA to be picked up via UPS, with Agilent paying the cost of the return shipping. * Rather than Agilent refund me in USD, I requested Agilent cancel the Paypal transaction, as I knew this would give me a 100% refund, not losing any money due to Paypal currency conversion fees. * Unfortunately, due to the time this had gone on, which was not helped by the long shipment time from Agilent to me, this was 70 days after I'd paid for the item. This is outside the 60-day limit for Paypal transactions to be cancelled. * I contacted Paypal to try to get this 60-day limit extended but was unsuccessful. I was advised that Agilent, being a large user of Paypal, would have had their own account manager, and that the Paypal account manager maybe able to cancel the transaction. * I advised Agilent of this, but Agilent were unable to cancel the Paypal transaction, so deceided to refund money to my UK bank account. * After various negotiations over this, in which I sent copies of my bank statement to Agilent showing them how much it cost me, I've been advised I will be refunded by the Agilent conversion rate for Nov’12 of 1.61078 USD = 1.00 GBP., which means I will receive £11,010.84. Hence the result of this, is that I've had to pay Paypal £11463.74, but will receive back £11010.84 from Agilent. Hence I will have lost £452.90 (around $720) of my own money. Hence let this be a warning to anyone else. A few things have contributed to this unfortunate experience. 1) Using Paypal for a transaction which incurred currency transfer fees. 2) The fact the transaction was for a fairly large sum of money. 3) Agilent's long dispatch time, which meant the issue took a long time to resolve. 4) Agilent's slightly unfavorable conversion rate of 1.61078 USD = 1.00 GBP, when xe.com gives 1.58840 USD = 1.00 GBP today. Of course Agilent have lost too: 1) Agilent have paid eBay fees 2) Agilent have paid Paypal fees 3) Agilent have paid the return shipping cost from my house to Agilent UK. 4) Agilent's support staff did their best to resolve the issues, and they obviously need to be paid. 5) A large number of Agilent staff were involved in the refund negotiations, who again need to be paid. 6) After fixing the hardware fault, Agilent will have to recondition the unit to sell it to someone else. I supsect the eBay/Paypal group have made at least $1000 from all this. Dr. David Kirkby - not a happy Paypal or Agilent customer.

PayPal is pretty much a law unto itself. Basically, if you choose to become involved with them, it's their bat, ball, glove, and ballpark. Your only real alternative is to play another game. Unfortunately, the younger generation of eBay sellers is convinced that PayPal and plastic is the only trustworthy way of doing business. I am somewhat pissed because I just lost out on an eBay item, not to another bidder as there was no one else, but to a PayPal only lockout. YMMV, -John ================ > I'm sure many on this list will have had bad experiences with eBay > and/or Paypal. I've had a fair few myself, but the following is the > single largest loss I have incurred, and was when buying directly from > Agilent - not some reseller of Agilent equipment. > > The only winners are eBay and Paypal, with myself and Agilent both > losing money. I will lose £452.90 (around $720 USD). I don't know how > much Agilent have lost, but I suspect it is more than me. > > As an individual buyer, not part of a large company, the £452.90 will > effect me more than it does a multi-billion dollar company like > Agilent. > > The eBay seller was "agilentused", which is Agilent selling some of > their reconditioned (CertiPrime) items via eBay. Brief details are: > > * On the 4th September I purchased an N9923A portable vector network > analyzer via Agilent from eBay. The purchase price was $17,736 (USD). > * The transaction was paid via Paypal. Since I live in the UK, I had > to pay Paypal £11463.74 (GBP). Obviously Paypal charge commission in > converting my GBP to USD. > * Just over a month later the VNA arrived from Agilent. The auction > clearly stated the item would be dispatched from Malasia about 3 weeks > after payment was received, so I was not surprised by this long > shipment time. > * The VNA arrived, and I was initially very pleased with it. It was > clearly reconditioned to a high standard, with a new battery, new > power supply, new manual, new case etc. The scratches which were on > the unit were *very* minor. > * I had various issues with this VNA - both a hardware fault and > firmware bugs. The details are pretty irrelevant, but I would say the > support from Agilent, especially from Afsi Moaveni, who supports this > product, was excellent. > * Agilent advised me the VNA needed to be returned for repair, as they > suspected a system board needed replacing. > * But given my concerns over the number of firmware bugs, for what > should have been a mature product (released 2-3 years ago), I > requested a refund. > * Agilent agreed to a refund. > * Agilent arranged for the VNA to be picked up via UPS, with Agilent > paying the cost of the return shipping. > * Rather than Agilent refund me in USD, I requested Agilent cancel the > Paypal transaction, as I knew this would give me a 100% refund, not > losing any money due to Paypal currency conversion fees. > * Unfortunately, due to the time this had gone on, which was not > helped by the long shipment time from Agilent to me, this was 70 days > after I'd paid for the item. This is outside the 60-day limit for > Paypal transactions to be cancelled. > * I contacted Paypal to try to get this 60-day limit extended but was > unsuccessful. I was advised that Agilent, being a large user of > Paypal, would have had their own account manager, and that the Paypal > account manager maybe able to cancel the transaction. > * I advised Agilent of this, but Agilent were unable to cancel the > Paypal transaction, so deceided to refund money to my UK bank account. > * After various negotiations over this, in which I sent copies of my > bank statement to Agilent showing them how much it cost me, I've been > advised I will be refunded by the Agilent conversion rate for Nov’12 > of 1.61078 USD = 1.00 GBP., which means I will receive £11,010.84. > > Hence the result of this, is that I've had to pay Paypal £11463.74, > but will receive back £11010.84 from Agilent. Hence I will have lost > £452.90 (around $720) of my own money. > > Hence let this be a warning to anyone else. > > A few things have contributed to this unfortunate experience. > > 1) Using Paypal for a transaction which incurred currency transfer fees. > 2) The fact the transaction was for a fairly large sum of money. > 3) Agilent's long dispatch time, which meant the issue took a long > time to resolve. > 4) Agilent's slightly unfavorable conversion rate of 1.61078 USD = > 1.00 GBP, when xe.com gives 1.58840 USD = 1.00 GBP today. > > Of course Agilent have lost too: > > 1) Agilent have paid eBay fees > 2) Agilent have paid Paypal fees > 3) Agilent have paid the return shipping cost from my house to Agilent UK. > 4) Agilent's support staff did their best to resolve the issues, and > they obviously need to be paid. > 5) A large number of Agilent staff were involved in the refund > negotiations, who again need to be paid. > 6) After fixing the hardware fault, Agilent will have to recondition > the unit to sell it to someone else. > > I supsect the eBay/Paypal group have made at least $1000 from all this. > > Dr. David Kirkby - not a happy Paypal or Agilent customer. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > >

On 16/11/12 23:48, J. Forster wrote: > PayPal is pretty much a law unto itself. Basically, if you choose to > become involved with them, it's their bat, ball, glove, and ballpark. Your > only real alternative is to play another game. > > Unfortunately, the younger generation of eBay sellers is convinced that > PayPal and plastic is the only trustworthy way of doing business. > > I am somewhat pissed because I just lost out on an eBay item, not to > another bidder as there was no one else, but to a PayPal only lockout. > I think most sellers would drop Paypal like a hot stone if they could. For the most part ebay insist that you offer Paypal above anything else.