Bell System Technical Journal now online
Cheer up Guys, this may never happen.
But is "never" a valid topic for discussion here?
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Neville Michie
Sent: 25 October 2010 01:43
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Determining Time-Nut infection severity.
One of the dangers of the TNI is that it can be caught from the
equipment
of the previous victim. No amount of sterilisation will have any effect.
It is bizarre to see how eagerly otherwise healthy individuals will
bid for
the items that will have such a dire consequence.
Over a period of time one good Caesium Unit could take out quite a few
victims.
cheers,
Neville Michie
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nuts
and follow the instructions there.
This sounds like a new project/kit... a TOD clock. Simple... monitor
heartbeat (easy enough and I know it's not the only thing involved but if it
stops... so do you usually... but KISS should be kept in mind for this or it
gets WAY to complicated). Heartbeat and PPS... with GPS and/or/with a small
Rb standard... Ticker stops ticking... timestamp! There we go. So,
who's going to do the TOD kit? I'd prefer something very small and not
obvious (like a watch that simply STOPS with a micro USB port to download
the accurate/precise time stamp of TOD). Easy enough?
Yes, I'm infected but probably worse than most. If you've seen my list of
gear and know that I don't even had the TBolt running yet (and have only
powered up one of my Rb standards... and have a LOT of "kits" to build....
etc.) you'd probably ALL place my TOD pretty quickly. ;)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Magnus Danielson" magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Determining Time-Nut infection severity.
On 10/24/2010 10:50 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Oct 24, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Richard H McCorkle wrote:
The disease will continue to progress until
ultimately all of the patients personal time and money are
exhausted or they die.
One can only hope that the local coroner is also a Time-Nut, so that time
of death can be determined with suitable accuracy and precision. Does
anybody know how many bits of precision are used on tombstones these
days?
The true report would not be correct without a traceability certificate
and confidence interval for the TOD indication, motivated by the
measurement inaccurancies and established TDEV measures.
Naturally the next of kin doesn't really care, as they now can dump all
the junk collected in the basement. The real mourning of the deceased from
fellow time-nuts comes when they realize just how much of precious gear
has been lost forever.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 25 October 2010 14:21, Heathkid heathkid@heathkid.com wrote:
This sounds like a new project/kit... a TOD clock. Simple... monitor
heartbeat (easy enough and I know it's not the only thing involved but if it
stops... so do you usually... but KISS should be kept in mind for this or it
gets WAY to complicated). Heartbeat and PPS... with GPS and/or/with a small
Rb standard... Ticker stops ticking... timestamp! There we go. So,
who's going to do the TOD kit? I'd prefer something very small and not
obvious (like a watch that simply STOPS with a micro USB port to download
the accurate/precise time stamp of TOD). Easy enough?
But isn't the clinical definition of death, brain death, as the heart
may stop but the person be resuscitated tens of seconds later. In our
terms, tens of seconds is like a lifetime so heatbeat is out as the
TOD metric. I would propose we develop a hat with inbuilt electrodes
that touch the scalp and measure brain activity. Once this has decayed
to the level as clinically defined as brain dead, a timestamp should
be made against a standard that is reasonably accurate to the degree
of uncertainty of the death event, IE. it is likely that the brain
activity will stop instantly with such a sharp cutoff as to be less
than a ms, us or whatever. The hat would include an integrated GPSDO
built upon a flexible PCB board design with integrated path antenna
positioned at the top. This could easily be powered by solar cells
charging very thin lithium ion flexible batteries embedded in the hat.
Of course the hat needs to be worn 24x7 so it would have to be of a
design that lends itself to sleeping hours as well therefore being a
sleeping cap so something like a beanie may be a starting point.
Extensions to the design may be a time display which would, of course,
double as the TOD display for those concerned with your internment and
the engraving of your tombstone. A PPS and disciplined oscillator
connection could also be incorporated as a form of mobile reference
for the wearer. As for cleaning, two of such hats would be owned by
the user with one "in the wash" while the other is being worn. Of
course, careful planning and design needs to be taken in the choice of
circuitry and construction so as to all the hat to be cleaned. There
is, of course, the faint possibility of death during the swapping of
but some careful planning of how to do the hat swap may alleviate this
window.
Steve
Yes, I'm infected but probably worse than most. If you've seen my list of
gear and know that I don't even had the TBolt running yet (and have only
powered up one of my Rb standards... and have a LOT of "kits" to build....
etc.) you'd probably ALL place my TOD pretty quickly. ;)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Magnus Danielson"
magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Determining Time-Nut infection severity.
On 10/24/2010 10:50 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Oct 24, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Richard H McCorkle wrote:
The disease will continue to progress until
ultimately all of the patients personal time and money are
exhausted or they die.
One can only hope that the local coroner is also a Time-Nut, so that time
of death can be determined with suitable accuracy and precision. Does
anybody know how many bits of precision are used on tombstones these days?
The true report would not be correct without a traceability certificate
and confidence interval for the TOD indication, motivated by the measurement
inaccurancies and established TDEV measures.
Naturally the next of kin doesn't really care, as they now can dump all
the junk collected in the basement. The real mourning of the deceased from
fellow time-nuts comes when they realize just how much of precious gear has
been lost forever.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD
The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.
- Einstein
J. Forster wrote:
If your TOD is to be measured with sub-nanosecond accuracy, where do you
measure from? The TOD of your head? Heart? Fingertips? Feet?
-John
I'll be dead.. it's the executor's problem. and if he/she gets it
wrong, I'll come back to haunt them.<grin>
I suspect that at time of death, brain activity
doesn't instantly cease, but decays.
Unless we would be able to monitor all brain
activity, we are stuck with a bald man paradox,
perhaps calculating the half-life of brain activity.
Maybe we could attempt to measure the weight of
the departing soul (Dr. Duncan MacDougall 1907)?
Surely the soul of a time-nut is more substantial
than, say, a politician.
Mike (Dead Weight) AA8K
On 10/24/2010 11:26 PM, Steve Rooke wrote:
But isn't the clinical definition of death, brain death, as the heart
may stop but the person be resuscitated tens of seconds later. In our
terms, tens of seconds is like a lifetime so heatbeat is out as the
TOD metric. I would propose we develop a hat with inbuilt electrodes
that touch the scalp and measure brain activity. Once this has decayed
to the level as clinically defined as brain dead, a timestamp should
be made against a standard that is reasonably accurate to the degree
of uncertainty of the death event, IE. it is likely that the brain
activity will stop instantly with such a sharp cutoff as to be less
than a ms, us or whatever. The hat would include an integrated GPSDO
built upon a flexible PCB board design with integrated path antenna
positioned at the top. This could easily be powered by solar cells
charging very thin lithium ion flexible batteries embedded in the hat.
Of course the hat needs to be worn 24x7 so it would have to be of a
design that lends itself to sleeping hours as well therefore being a
sleeping cap so something like a beanie may be a starting point.
Extensions to the design may be a time display which would, of course,
double as the TOD display for those concerned with your internment and
the engraving of your tombstone. A PPS and disciplined oscillator
connection could also be incorporated as a form of mobile reference
for the wearer. As for cleaning, two of such hats would be owned by
the user with one "in the wash" while the other is being worn. Of
course, careful planning and design needs to be taken in the choice of
circuitry and construction so as to all the hat to be cleaned. There
is, of course, the faint possibility of death during the swapping of
but some careful planning of how to do the hat swap may alleviate this
window.
Steve
course, careful planning and design needs to be taken in the choice of
circuitry and construction so as to all the hat to be cleaned. There
is, of course, the faint possibility of death during the swapping of
but some careful planning of how to do the hat swap may alleviate this
window.
As indeed care would need to be taken to ensure that the measuring
instrument doesn't affect the DUT........
--
73 de Paul GW8IZR IO73TI
http://www.gw8izr.com
One example I saw the report of recently had a fairly well defined TOD. It was a Continental Arilines engineer looking for an oil leak on a 737 at El Paso. He was beside the starboard engine and told the pilot to set the power at 70%. He then stood up and was sucked into the engine. TOD was determined from flight data recorder traces and correlated to ATC radio recotdings that were time stamped. It only took a few seconds for him to go through the engine fan. The pictures of the scene are pretty graphic.
Robert G8RPI.
--- On Mon, 25/10/10, jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
From: jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Determining Time-Nut infection severity.
To: jfor@quik.com, "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Monday, 25 October, 2010, 4:54
J. Forster wrote:
If your TOD is to be measured with sub-nanosecond accuracy, where do you
measure from? The TOD of your head? Heart? Fingertips? Feet?
-John
I'll be dead.. it's the executor's problem. and if he/she gets it wrong, I'll come back to haunt them.<grin>
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
As usual, it seems I was incorrect. At least in the US legal system,
clinical death is considered to be the cessation of blood flow due to
heart failure and similar due to breathing having stopped. This,
apparently, means one can be brain dead but still considered to be
alive. Thinking about it now, I'm sure I have met some people who fit
that description :)
It's also interesting how long one can be clinically dead but still be
revived, depending upon the circumstances and the treatment one
receives at the time of medical intervention. To this extent,
modification of the "TOD hat" should in fact timestamp the cessation
of the heartbeat and then trigger peltier devices to cool the brain
area in an attempt to prolong the resuscitation window. Perhaps one of
the propeller hats could be retrofitted with a motor which engages at
the time of clinical death and thence cools the brain area to effect
this process as well. Logically though, complications may occur in
determining the time of death if one is subjected to multiple
resuscitations eventually culminating in a final determination of
legal death at some period after. Apparently the medical profession
has a saying that "you ain’t dead until your warm and dead", as one
may be successfully resuscitated, but damage caused by Ischemia can
result irreversible death some time later.
To this end, I think I'll have the headstone engraved with "Died: 21st
century'ish (approx date can be determined by carbon dating)". Also, I
will donate the fertile earth from the 6' hole of my internment to the
worthy cause of growing food for the hungry and back-fill the hole
with all the expensive stuff I have accumulated during my life. To
this end, future archaeologists may be able to determine that I had
some interest in knowing the precise time and frequency. I'm sure they
will chuckle as they look down at their $1 gas-station wrist-watches
which are kept in time via an embedded oscillator disciplined by
sub-atomic strings, being accurate to 1E-99, and wonder what the
dickens all the fuss was about.
As usual, please apply a liberal quantity of :) to my posts.
Steve
On 25 October 2010 16:26, Steve Rooke sar10538@gmail.com wrote:
On 25 October 2010 14:21, Heathkid heathkid@heathkid.com wrote:
This sounds like a new project/kit... a TOD clock. Simple... monitor
heartbeat (easy enough and I know it's not the only thing involved but if it
stops... so do you usually... but KISS should be kept in mind for this or it
gets WAY to complicated). Heartbeat and PPS... with GPS and/or/with a small
Rb standard... Ticker stops ticking... timestamp! There we go. So,
who's going to do the TOD kit? I'd prefer something very small and not
obvious (like a watch that simply STOPS with a micro USB port to download
the accurate/precise time stamp of TOD). Easy enough?
But isn't the clinical definition of death, brain death, as the heart
may stop but the person be resuscitated tens of seconds later. In our
terms, tens of seconds is like a lifetime so heatbeat is out as the
TOD metric. I would propose we develop a hat with inbuilt electrodes
that touch the scalp and measure brain activity. Once this has decayed
to the level as clinically defined as brain dead, a timestamp should
be made against a standard that is reasonably accurate to the degree
of uncertainty of the death event, IE. it is likely that the brain
activity will stop instantly with such a sharp cutoff as to be less
than a ms, us or whatever. The hat would include an integrated GPSDO
built upon a flexible PCB board design with integrated path antenna
positioned at the top. This could easily be powered by solar cells
charging very thin lithium ion flexible batteries embedded in the hat.
Of course the hat needs to be worn 24x7 so it would have to be of a
design that lends itself to sleeping hours as well therefore being a
sleeping cap so something like a beanie may be a starting point.
Extensions to the design may be a time display which would, of course,
double as the TOD display for those concerned with your internment and
the engraving of your tombstone. A PPS and disciplined oscillator
connection could also be incorporated as a form of mobile reference
for the wearer. As for cleaning, two of such hats would be owned by
the user with one "in the wash" while the other is being worn. Of
course, careful planning and design needs to be taken in the choice of
circuitry and construction so as to all the hat to be cleaned. There
is, of course, the faint possibility of death during the swapping of
but some careful planning of how to do the hat swap may alleviate this
window.
Steve
Yes, I'm infected but probably worse than most. If you've seen my list of
gear and know that I don't even had the TBolt running yet (and have only
powered up one of my Rb standards... and have a LOT of "kits" to build....
etc.) you'd probably ALL place my TOD pretty quickly. ;)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Magnus Danielson"
magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Determining Time-Nut infection severity.
On 10/24/2010 10:50 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Oct 24, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Richard H McCorkle wrote:
The disease will continue to progress until
ultimately all of the patients personal time and money are
exhausted or they die.
One can only hope that the local coroner is also a Time-Nut, so that time
of death can be determined with suitable accuracy and precision. Does
anybody know how many bits of precision are used on tombstones these days?
The true report would not be correct without a traceability certificate
and confidence interval for the TOD indication, motivated by the measurement
inaccurancies and established TDEV measures.
Naturally the next of kin doesn't really care, as they now can dump all
the junk collected in the basement. The real mourning of the deceased from
fellow time-nuts comes when they realize just how much of precious gear has
been lost forever.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD
The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.
- Einstein
--
Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD
The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.
- Einstein
Mike is correct. Brain activity does not screech to a halt but peters out
over a period of minutes once the heart stops beating.
When we (I'm in the medical field and not, by any stretch of the imagination
an engineer) speak of someone being "brain dead" or "flat line EEG," we
don't really mean that there is no electrical activity in the brain at all,
only that there is no purposeful activity.
That is why, in most jurisdictions--not all--death is defined as cessation
of heartbeat. In the eyes of the law, that's a dichotomous variable; it is
or it ain't. Which means, from a legal perspective, at least, that when lay
people say that so-and-so was dead for a time and then brought back, they
are correct, cornball as it sounds.
Actually, heart beat doesn't cease like snapping a light switch but trails
off into meaningless blips and wiggles that can go on for a while.
Clinical death, to physicians and other health professionals is when the
machine has quit and it can't be fired up again. Vague, yes, but perfectly
adequate.
So.....I see no way in which one could determine with precision when life
ends. At least not with the precision that this group would consider even
minimally acceptable.
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:26 AM, Mike Naruta AA8K aa8k@comcast.net wrote:
I suspect that at time of death, brain activity
doesn't instantly cease, but decays.
Unless we would be able to monitor all brain
activity, we are stuck with a bald man paradox,
perhaps calculating the half-life of brain activity.
Maybe we could attempt to measure the weight of
the departing soul (Dr. Duncan MacDougall 1907)?
Surely the soul of a time-nut is more substantial
than, say, a politician.
Mike (Dead Weight) AA8K
On 10/24/2010 11:26 PM, Steve Rooke wrote:
But isn't the clinical definition of death, brain death, as the heart
may stop but the person be resuscitated tens of seconds later. In our
terms, tens of seconds is like a lifetime so heatbeat is out as the
TOD metric. I would propose we develop a hat with inbuilt electrodes
that touch the scalp and measure brain activity. Once this has decayed
to the level as clinically defined as brain dead, a timestamp should
be made against a standard that is reasonably accurate to the degree
of uncertainty of the death event, IE. it is likely that the brain
activity will stop instantly with such a sharp cutoff as to be less
than a ms, us or whatever. The hat would include an integrated GPSDO
built upon a flexible PCB board design with integrated path antenna
positioned at the top. This could easily be powered by solar cells
charging very thin lithium ion flexible batteries embedded in the hat.
Of course the hat needs to be worn 24x7 so it would have to be of a
design that lends itself to sleeping hours as well therefore being a
sleeping cap so something like a beanie may be a starting point.
Extensions to the design may be a time display which would, of course,
double as the TOD display for those concerned with your internment and
the engraving of your tombstone. A PPS and disciplined oscillator
connection could also be incorporated as a form of mobile reference
for the wearer. As for cleaning, two of such hats would be owned by
the user with one "in the wash" while the other is being worn. Of
course, careful planning and design needs to be taken in the choice of
circuitry and construction so as to all the hat to be cleaned. There
is, of course, the faint possibility of death during the swapping of
but some careful planning of how to do the hat swap may alleviate this
window.
Steve
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
"I suspect that at time of death, brain activity doesn't instantly cease, but decays."
I suspect that was not the case for the guy who was sucked into the jet engine :)
Or it was a pretty fast decay...
Didier
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Naruta AA8K aa8k@comcast.net
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 06:26:41
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: aa8k@comcast.net,
Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Determining Time-Nut infection severity
I suspect that at time of death, brain activity
doesn't instantly cease, but decays.
Unless we would be able to monitor all brain
activity, we are stuck with a bald man paradox,
perhaps calculating the half-life of brain activity.
Maybe we could attempt to measure the weight of
the departing soul (Dr. Duncan MacDougall 1907)?
Surely the soul of a time-nut is more substantial
than, say, a politician.
Mike (Dead Weight) AA8K
On 10/24/2010 11:26 PM, Steve Rooke wrote:
But isn't the clinical definition of death, brain death, as the heart
may stop but the person be resuscitated tens of seconds later. In our
terms, tens of seconds is like a lifetime so heatbeat is out as the
TOD metric. I would propose we develop a hat with inbuilt electrodes
that touch the scalp and measure brain activity. Once this has decayed
to the level as clinically defined as brain dead, a timestamp should
be made against a standard that is reasonably accurate to the degree
of uncertainty of the death event, IE. it is likely that the brain
activity will stop instantly with such a sharp cutoff as to be less
than a ms, us or whatever. The hat would include an integrated GPSDO
built upon a flexible PCB board design with integrated path antenna
positioned at the top. This could easily be powered by solar cells
charging very thin lithium ion flexible batteries embedded in the hat.
Of course the hat needs to be worn 24x7 so it would have to be of a
design that lends itself to sleeping hours as well therefore being a
sleeping cap so something like a beanie may be a starting point.
Extensions to the design may be a time display which would, of course,
double as the TOD display for those concerned with your internment and
the engraving of your tombstone. A PPS and disciplined oscillator
connection could also be incorporated as a form of mobile reference
for the wearer. As for cleaning, two of such hats would be owned by
the user with one "in the wash" while the other is being worn. Of
course, careful planning and design needs to be taken in the choice of
circuitry and construction so as to all the hat to be cleaned. There
is, of course, the faint possibility of death during the swapping of
but some careful planning of how to do the hat swap may alleviate this
window.
Steve
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.