OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping
There are fairly decent small pick-and-place machines you can get for <$3000. A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300. At these costs, it does not take many outside assembly house runs to pay for the machinery... maybe even one. If your board has components on only one side, the do-it-yourself route is a bit easier.
I know a couple of people that made their own pick-and-place machines. One is rather neat (optical imaging, etc) and out-performs some $10,000+ machines, except for maybe speed. He built it over a couple of weeks from junk parts.
Hi
Right now the dividing line for a fully automatic machine is at about $3K. For
below that you can get a machine without vision. For a bit above that you can
get a machine with dual camera (one up / one down) vision capability. You
quickly spiral up in cost as you add auto change pick heads, pneumatic
feeders, and conveyor systems. They all pretty much assume you have
a Windows PC and that it’s free to use with the machine.
One subtle hassle on assembly is parts on reels and the leader material. I
have yet to find any pick and place feeders that are happy with the leader
the distributors glue to cut tape. The only real alternative is to either design
against an inventory that somebody already has or to plan on buying full
reels of everything.
Bob
On Jun 23, 2016, at 7:28 PM, Mark Sims holrum@hotmail.com wrote:
There are fairly decent small pick-and-place machines you can get for <$3000. A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300. At these costs, it does not take many outside assembly house runs to pay for the machinery... maybe even one. If your board has components on only one side, the do-it-yourself route is a bit easier.
I know a couple of people that made their own pick-and-place machines. One is rather neat (optical imaging, etc) and out-performs some $10,000+ machines, except for maybe speed. He built it over a couple of weeks from junk parts.
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On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +0000, Mark Sims wrote:
A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.
Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in this price
range? Every time I've gone looking on Amazon, I've found ovens which
(according to reviews) had cycle timers were horribly off, to the point
they would sometimes burn boards by keeping them at peak temperature
for 2x - 3x as long as they were programmed to. Though you can work
around that if you really want to, this really doesn't meet my definition
of "usable".
Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
-j
Hi
Both the T962 and the T962A’s work ok. You need to re-tape them and re-flash the
firmware. They are IR reflow machines and you have to design with that in mind. The IR
process has never been a good idea for 85C rated black cased plastic capacitors. Is it
better or worse than a converted toaster? That depends on how much work you did on
the toaster…..
If you simply want a more plug and play with less thinking involved, machine there are others up
in the $1500 to $2000 range.
I’ve been doing SMT assembly for 40 years. I have never ever seen anybody with a process
that “just worked”. They all involve some amount of fine tuning and design optimization.
Bob
On Jun 23, 2016, at 9:28 PM, Jay Grizzard elfchief-timenuts@lupine.org wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +0000, Mark Sims wrote:
A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.
Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in this price
range? Every time I've gone looking on Amazon, I've found ovens which
(according to reviews) had cycle timers were horribly off, to the point
they would sometimes burn boards by keeping them at peak temperature
for 2x - 3x as long as they were programmed to. Though you can work
around that if you really want to, this really doesn't meet my definition
of "usable".
Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
-j
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and follow the instructions there.
Aside from using the toaster oven reflow controller from SparkFun?
On Jun 23, 2016, at 21:28, Jay Grizzard elfchief-timenuts@lupine.org wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +0000, Mark Sims wrote:
A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.
Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in this price
range? Every time I've gone looking on Amazon, I've found ovens which
(according to reviews) had cycle timers were horribly off, to the point
they would sometimes burn boards by keeping them at peak temperature
for 2x - 3x as long as they were programmed to. Though you can work
around that if you really want to, this really doesn't meet my definition
of "usable".
Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
-j
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and follow the instructions there.
Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
A lot of people are building them from Black and Decker (and the like)
toaster ovens. Use Arduino for controller or just eyeballs. oven
thermometer and wrist watch. It is not rocket science the Arduino
controller software reads a thermocouple and controls an on/off relay.
Lots of instructions around if you google for reflow toaster oven.
As for pick and place, the old method still works. Work by hand under
a low power stereo microscope. You buy a syringe of solder past and
place little dabs on each pad then place the part with twitters.
Many years ago I worked at a place that had a few dozen women who did
this all day long. You can get a very good used microscope (5x to
20x zoom works well) for under $250 and a workable one for under $100.
But many people today are using cameras and a big computer monitor in
place of the microscope.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
On 6/23/2016 10:53 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
A lot of people are building them from Black and Decker (and the like)
toaster ovens. Use Arduino for controller or just eyeballs. oven
thermometer and wrist watch. It is not rocket science the Arduino
controller software reads a thermocouple and controls an on/off relay.
Lots of instructions around if you google for reflow toaster oven.
I'm using a
PicoReflow.https://apollo.open-resource.org/mission:resources:picoreflow
It's Raspberry Pi based, so the board cost is about the same as an
Arduino, but I use my tablet as the user interface AND tweaking profile
is trivial unlike most of the Arduino based stuff. The system uses an
internal web server and can be connected to a local monitor, or a web
interface. All the control logic is in Python. I used the tablet browser
and I don't need to stand next to it to monitor operation. This is
particularly handy when I'm baking out parts. I hand wired the
interface board (trivial I/O) and used a purchase MAX31855 based board
for another $20 from
http://www.playingwithfusion.com/productview.php?pdid=19&catid=1001
(love the site name)
--
mailto:oz@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
Take a look at the oven at http://whizoo.com/buy . They sell several kits as
well as a complete kit to modify a toaster oven, and a ready-to-go oven for
$699, shipping included. According to the web site, it uses a B&D model
T01303SB toaster oven, capable of handling an 8"x10.5" board.
The oven and controller, as shipped, is calibrated for lead-free solder, but
if requested, he can recalibrate for any solder paste, so long as you
provide the manufacturer's reflow requirements.
The controller firmware is open source.
ControLeo2 specifications and features
a.. ATmega32u4 microcontroller with Arduino Leonardo boot loader
a.. 32Kb Flash memory
b.. 2.5Kb SRAM
c.. 1Kb EEPROM
b.. LCD display - 2 lines x 16 characters.
c.. 4 relay outputs - relays are connected using screw terminals or the
6-pin relay header (4 outputs, +5V, GND). The outputs provide up to 220mA at
5V. The outputs support connections to solid-state relays (SSRs) or
mechanical relays
d.. Buzzer - 80db at 10cm
e.. 2 momentary switches - for user input.
f.. ABS plastic case - custom fit, flame-retardant (UL94-5VA)
g.. MAX31855KASA thermocouple - capable of reading temperatures
from -200°C to 1350°C using a k-type thermocouple.
h.. Input voltage: 5V (USB or screw terminals) - For reliability and
longevity, the screw terminals should be used to power ControLeo2. For
solid-state relays, the 500mA provided by USB is sufficient to power
ControLeo2 and the relays. For mechanical relays please use a 1000mA 5V
power supply connected to the screw terminals.
i.. Pre-loaded software - Reflow Wizard
Looks like a pretty decent project. I've no connection with the seller... I
found this project after getting intrested in this thread.
Cheers,
Dave M
Chris Albertson wrote:
Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of
problems?
A lot of people are building them from Black and Decker (and the like)
toaster ovens. Use Arduino for controller or just eyeballs. oven
thermometer and wrist watch. It is not rocket science the Arduino
controller software reads a thermocouple and controls an on/off relay.
Lots of instructions around if you google for reflow toaster oven.
As for pick and place, the old method still works. Work by hand under
a low power stereo microscope. You buy a syringe of solder past and
place little dabs on each pad then place the part with twitters.
Many years ago I worked at a place that had a few dozen women who did
this all day long. You can get a very good used microscope (5x to
20x zoom works well) for under $250 and a workable one for under $100.
But many people today are using cameras and a big computer monitor in
place of the microscope.
You know, this thread has had a tremendous amount of practical information, with actual URLs, etc. Would someone be willing to consolidate the info on a web page somewhere?
On Jun 24, 2016, at 9:56 AM, Oz-in-DFW lists@ozindfw.net wrote:
On 6/23/2016 10:53 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
A lot of people are building them from Black and Decker (and the like)
toaster ovens. Use Arduino for controller or just eyeballs. oven
thermometer and wrist watch. It is not rocket science the Arduino
controller software reads a thermocouple and controls an on/off relay.
Lots of instructions around if you google for reflow toaster oven.
I'm using a
PicoReflow.https://apollo.open-resource.org/mission:resources:picoreflow
It's Raspberry Pi based, so the board cost is about the same as an
Arduino, but I use my tablet as the user interface AND tweaking profile
is trivial unlike most of the Arduino based stuff. The system uses an
internal web server and can be connected to a local monitor, or a web
interface. All the control logic is in Python. I used the tablet browser
and I don't need to stand next to it to monitor operation. This is
particularly handy when I'm baking out parts. I hand wired the
interface board (trivial I/O) and used a purchase MAX31855 based board
for another $20 from
http://www.playingwithfusion.com/productview.php?pdid=19&catid=1001
(love the site name)
--
mailto:oz@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:28 PM, Jay Grizzard elfchief-timenuts@lupine.org wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +0000, Mark Sims wrote:
A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.
Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in this price
range?
I sell a reflow oven conversion kit on Tindie, FWIW.
https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/toast-r-reflow-power-board-kit/
https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/toast-r-reflow-controller/
It’s two separate pieces because I really wanted to divide the problem between the dangerous power handling bits, and all the rest, which is low voltage and safe to fool with. The intent is that you gut the toaster oven’s native controls and install the power board inside. You connect a 3 wire LV cable to the control port and bring that out to the controller. The control is opto-isolated triacs, so effectively an LED acts as a proxy for the elements.
I’ve been using them with the same toaster oven ever since the very beginning. The toaster isn’t agile enough for RoHS paste, but that could probably be fixed by better insulation or perhaps hacking in an extra heating element.