Empathy List Archives

T

Thataway@aol.com

Wed, May 23, 2001 6:11 PM

Jerry,
You live in Troller/trawler country and as you travel you will examples
of both--and occasionally a yacht conversion of either a troller or trawler.
In reality the vessels that most of us have are not trollers, trawlers or
passagemakers--they are slow motor yachts.

Trolling for Salomon and many other fish is done at 1 to 3 knots--for

hours on end. Some boats use hand lines, some hyroulic gurnnies to pull the
lines. Some troll unders sail--even in some areas under oar power. Trollers
have to have some turn of speed to get to the fishing grounds and back in
reasonable time and also to with stand heavy weather. They generally a round
bilge boat, with full keel.

Trawlers are working boats that pull trawls--nets that catch fish--they

need large engines for the power to pull these nets (may be all sort of fish
or shrimp--even oysters) They also need a fair turn of speed. The hull
lines are usually entirely different Broader of beam and flatter lines
aft--many even hard chined.

Passagemakers are low powered ocean crossing vessels. For Example a boat

stopped at the ship yard across from me two years ago--62 feet long, about 10
foot beam with a single Perkins 4 108, on his way to cross the Atlantic
Ocean to his Native Sweden. This perkins is in reality a 35 hp engine when
you look at realistic prop power--he had an entire extra engine setting ready
to be swung in place if the primary failed for some reason. This boat had
paravanes for stabelization. It was lightweight of Alumium construction.

I have chosen to call my boat a "trawler" because it moves at trawler

speeds--normally 8 to 10 knots--relitatively ineffecient--in fact is is an
underpowered motor yacht. I choose this boat for certain reasons that it
would fulfill what I wanted at this point in my life: shoal draft, a speed of
10 knots to avoid overnighters, large volume etc. I have spent the majority
of my 160,000 miles of cruising in sailboats that did not use more than a
gallon of fuel an hour at 6.5 knots (including a boat 62 feet LOA)

Why don't builders build passage maker types--Because people don't buy

them.
When the "tug trawlers" first came out as character boats, the very first had
small engines--the public wanted bigger and bigger. The same thing is
happening in the classic trawler--when Grand Banks first came out you could
not buy one that went more than 8 knots--now 20 knots. People have $ and
want to go faster--Is this wise--probably not; but it is what sells. Frankly
I usually run my boat at 7.5 knots because it is reasonable fuel economy, but
I have the capacity for sustained speeds for 10 knots and still a reasonable
range.

I hope that this at least answers some of your questions.

Bob Austin
Symbol 42, slow motor yacht.
Pensacola, FL

Jerry, You live in Troller/trawler country and as you travel you will examples of both--and occasionally a yacht conversion of either a troller or trawler. In reality the vessels that most of us have are not trollers, trawlers or passagemakers--they are slow motor yachts. Trolling for Salomon and many other fish is done at 1 to 3 knots--for hours on end. Some boats use hand lines, some hyroulic gurnnies to pull the lines. Some troll unders sail--even in some areas under oar power. Trollers have to have some turn of speed to get to the fishing grounds and back in reasonable time and also to with stand heavy weather. They generally a round bilge boat, with full keel. Trawlers are working boats that pull trawls--nets that catch fish--they need large engines for the power to pull these nets (may be all sort of fish or shrimp--even oysters) They also need a fair turn of speed. The hull lines are usually entirely different Broader of beam and flatter lines aft--many even hard chined. Passagemakers are low powered ocean crossing vessels. For Example a boat stopped at the ship yard across from me two years ago--62 feet long, about 10 foot beam with a single Perkins 4 108, on his way to cross the Atlantic Ocean to his Native Sweden. This perkins is in reality a 35 hp engine when you look at realistic prop power--he had an entire extra engine setting ready to be swung in place if the primary failed for some reason. This boat had paravanes for stabelization. It was lightweight of Alumium construction. I have chosen to call my boat a "trawler" because it moves at trawler speeds--normally 8 to 10 knots--relitatively ineffecient--in fact is is an underpowered motor yacht. I choose this boat for certain reasons that it would fulfill what I wanted at this point in my life: shoal draft, a speed of 10 knots to avoid overnighters, large volume etc. I have spent the majority of my 160,000 miles of cruising in sailboats that did not use more than a gallon of fuel an hour at 6.5 knots (including a boat 62 feet LOA) Why don't builders build passage maker types--Because people don't buy them. When the "tug trawlers" first came out as character boats, the very first had small engines--the public wanted bigger and bigger. The same thing is happening in the classic trawler--when Grand Banks first came out you could not buy one that went more than 8 knots--now 20 knots. People have $ and want to go faster--Is this wise--probably not; but it is what sells. Frankly I usually run my boat at 7.5 knots because it is reasonable fuel economy, but I have the capacity for sustained speeds for 10 knots and still a reasonable range. I hope that this at least answers some of your questions. Bob Austin Symbol 42, slow motor yacht. Pensacola, FL

D

david@kennett.net

Wed, May 23, 2001 7:48 PM

snip>

In reality the vessels that most of us have are not trollers, trawlers or
passagemakers--they are slow motor yachts.

snip>

Except mine of course, and then there's quite a gathering of Krogens on the
list, Oh yah those Willard folks keep making good comments and even a
Seaton; I would not call him a slow motor yacht . . .and how do you spell
Nordhavn? . . . but everyone has a reason and all boats are a compromise.
We selected a full displacement over the semi-boneless versions for
comfort, efficiency and seaworthiness. The Admiral said slow, so I said
then the best and most efficient slow is full displacement.

On the other hand, if our next boat is fast it will be a planning hull, and
have huge motors. Thats how I look at these compromises. I know I'm pretty
black and white about this issue and many folks on this list have more
expereince and are smarter than me, but to me its fast or slow, the middle
has too many compromises and is inefficient.

Here's how I clog up my mind on these issues. A friend has a lear jet which
has many interesting comparisons to Skooch. First it holds the same amount
of fuel, 750 gallons. (they use pounds of course) Next is has a range of
1000 NM, same as Skooch with the same reserve. We can both slow down and
extend these ranges at about the same percentages. There are two major
differences, the jet burns the fuel quicker and he gets the 1000NM done in
less time. Fuel mileage is the same! He burns his in a few hours and I
need a week.

Next I have to do some homework on the new super fast fuel gulping
sportfisherman at 30 knots. Coming as soon as get Skooch to Charelston,
slowly.

Ya makes a choice, Ya pays your money and Ya takes your chances.
Humphrey Bogart, African Queen

Skooch - Hatteras 42 LRC
Fort Lauderdale
David Stahl

Kennett Internet Services, 112 S. Union Street, Kennett Square, PA 19348
610-444-9008 Visit our web site at http://www.kennett.net

snip> >In reality the vessels that most of us have are not trollers, trawlers or >passagemakers--they are slow motor yachts. snip> Except mine of course, and then there's quite a gathering of Krogens on the list, Oh yah those Willard folks keep making good comments and even a Seaton; I would not call him a slow motor yacht . . .and how do you spell Nordhavn? . . . but everyone has a reason and all boats are a compromise. We selected a full displacement over the semi-boneless versions for comfort, efficiency and seaworthiness. The Admiral said slow, so I said then the best and most efficient slow is full displacement. On the other hand, if our next boat is fast it will be a planning hull, and have huge motors. Thats how I look at these compromises. I know I'm pretty black and white about this issue and many folks on this list have more expereince and are smarter than me, but to me its fast or slow, the middle has too many compromises and is inefficient. Here's how I clog up my mind on these issues. A friend has a lear jet which has many interesting comparisons to Skooch. First it holds the same amount of fuel, 750 gallons. (they use pounds of course) Next is has a range of 1000 NM, same as Skooch with the same reserve. We can both slow down and extend these ranges at about the same percentages. There are two major differences, the jet burns the fuel quicker and he gets the 1000NM done in less time. Fuel mileage is the same! He burns his in a few hours and I need a week. Next I have to do some homework on the new super fast fuel gulping sportfisherman at 30 knots. Coming as soon as get Skooch to Charelston, slowly. Ya makes a choice, Ya pays your money and Ya takes your chances. Humphrey Bogart, African Queen Skooch - Hatteras 42 LRC Fort Lauderdale David Stahl ************************************************************** Kennett Internet Services, 112 S. Union Street, Kennett Square, PA 19348 610-444-9008 Visit our web site at http://www.kennett.net

WS

water_sparky@yahoo.com

Wed, May 23, 2001 8:01 PM

I would like to get an estimate to build new diesel fuel tanks for my boat
weigh whether or not to repair or replace them. The existing tanks are
steel, but I would like to try aluminum. Are there any mechanical engineers
out there (or wannabes) that know what type and thickness of aluminum should
tanks be made of? I have heard of 5052 and min 3/16" thick...
Thanks.
Joseph

Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

I would like to get an estimate to build new diesel fuel tanks for my boat weigh whether or not to repair or replace them. The existing tanks are steel, but I would like to try aluminum. Are there any mechanical engineers out there (or wannabes) that know what type and thickness of aluminum should tanks be made of? I have heard of 5052 and min 3/16" thick... Thanks. Joseph _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

D

deering@ak.net

Thu, May 24, 2001 2:18 AM

I can tell you why I own a fast boat right now. I have to be at work Monday
morning. A few weekends ago I accompanied a friend moving his 9 knot full
displacement boat from here in Juneau to Glacier Bay for the summer, where
he works and lives aboard. Pretty nice cruising grounds, wouldn't you say?
The problem was that in the time available to us we had to make a
straight-line course, even though there are many interesting places to check
out in between. I find that with my fast boat I can explore more territory
in a week in SE Alaska than most people can in a month on a slow boat.
Maybe not as comfortably, maybe not as safely, maybe not as economically,
but if I owned a slow boat right now I simply wouldn't get to those places.
That's the compromise I have to make. I'm not knocking slow boats, just
pointing out the obvious. Once I don't have to be at work on Monday morning
I'll probably own some sort of displacement boat too - they make a lot of
sense if you have the time.

Bob Deering
Juneau Alaska

I can tell you why I own a fast boat right now. I have to be at work Monday morning. A few weekends ago I accompanied a friend moving his 9 knot full displacement boat from here in Juneau to Glacier Bay for the summer, where he works and lives aboard. Pretty nice cruising grounds, wouldn't you say? The problem was that in the time available to us we had to make a straight-line course, even though there are many interesting places to check out in between. I find that with my fast boat I can explore more territory in a week in SE Alaska than most people can in a month on a slow boat. Maybe not as comfortably, maybe not as safely, maybe not as economically, but if I owned a slow boat right now I simply wouldn't get to those places. That's the compromise I have to make. I'm not knocking slow boats, just pointing out the obvious. Once I don't have to be at work on Monday morning I'll probably own some sort of displacement boat too - they make a lot of sense if you have the time. Bob Deering Juneau Alaska

D

doughoople@earthlink.net

Thu, May 24, 2001 8:48 AM

Hi Everyone,

I'm the guy with the 38-year-old DD 671s who was taking a pathologically long preheat
times to start my engines. Thought you might be interested in an update.

I solved part of the problem starting my engines. You set the throttle at full until
the engine fires. It's that simple. I think somebody mentioned that along the way,
but it got lost in the clutter.

Detroits are self-bleeding, but they're also self-draining. The service manual tells
you to install a check valve in the intake line at the fuel tank (!) to prevent
draining when the engine's not running.

I've still got compression problems. There's thick, white unburned diesel in the air
that doesn't go away until the temps rise to about 130-140F. But at least I'm not in
the category of totally-unheard-of any more.

Thanks again for all your feedback. It's been a VERY educational trip.

Doug Hoople
Bomar
1963 Stephens Bros. 50 FDMY
Sausalito, CA

Hi Everyone, I'm the guy with the 38-year-old DD 671s who was taking a pathologically long preheat times to start my engines. Thought you might be interested in an update. I solved part of the problem starting my engines. You set the throttle at full until the engine fires. It's that simple. I think somebody mentioned that along the way, but it got lost in the clutter. Detroits are self-bleeding, but they're also self-draining. The service manual tells you to install a check valve in the intake line at the fuel tank (!) to prevent draining when the engine's not running. I've still got compression problems. There's thick, white unburned diesel in the air that doesn't go away until the temps rise to about 130-140F. But at least I'm not in the category of totally-unheard-of any more. Thanks again for all your feedback. It's been a VERY educational trip. Doug Hoople Bomar 1963 Stephens Bros. 50 FDMY Sausalito, CA

RP

Richter-Pooh@rocketmail.com

Thu, May 24, 2001 3:55 PM

Joseph,
Aluminum fuel tanks are most often made from 5052
alloy, a common and inexpensive marine grade, and a
good choice. 5083 is a superior grade, but more
expensive, less commonly available, and rarely used in
tanks. 6061 is a very common structural alloy,
cheaper but not as corrosion resistant as 5052; don't
use for tanks.

The necessary thickness of the tanks depends on their
size, and the distance between internal supports or
baffles. For example, the 168 gal aluminum tanks we
added to Winnie the Pooh are 26" high, about 84" long,
about 24" wide at the top, and are divided into three
compartments lengthwise, so the unsupported panel size
is about 28x26". The tank material is 3/16" 5052.
These tanks were built for Hatteras, and I acquired
them new surplus for $2/gal at Marine Surplus in
Sarasota, FL.

My preference for fuel guages is a dipstick through
the fill hose, if that is a straight vertical run.
Second choice is sight gage. Electrical guages are
notoriously innacurate in boats and aircraft, don't
rely on them.

Cleanout ports are a mixed blessing, sometimes they
develop leaks. I'd put them on top if the tops are
available for access, otherwise I'd probably leave
them out.

The tanks should not have a flat bottom, though most
tanks do. You want your fuel suction tube to go
nearly to the bottom of the lowest point, and another
suction tube to go all the way to the bottom, so you
can suck out the worst of the water, dirt, and scum
here. This cleanout tube is rarely included in tanks
today. Older tanks often included a drain port at the
very bottom of the tank, and a ball valve to drain off
the scum. Such drains are not CG approved for
gasoline use. Since the tank manufacturer can't
control whether its tanks are used for gasoline or
diesel, many won't put the drains in. The cleanout
tube is safe for gas or diesel (though personally I
prefer the drain).

=====
Mark Richter, M.E., aboard M/V Winnie the Pooh,
custom Morgan 46 Pilothouse Efficiency Trawler.
"Mark's Mobile Marine" electrical systems repair & consulting. Homeport Stuart, FL

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Joseph, Aluminum fuel tanks are most often made from 5052 alloy, a common and inexpensive marine grade, and a good choice. 5083 is a superior grade, but more expensive, less commonly available, and rarely used in tanks. 6061 is a very common structural alloy, cheaper but not as corrosion resistant as 5052; don't use for tanks. The necessary thickness of the tanks depends on their size, and the distance between internal supports or baffles. For example, the 168 gal aluminum tanks we added to Winnie the Pooh are 26" high, about 84" long, about 24" wide at the top, and are divided into three compartments lengthwise, so the unsupported panel size is about 28x26". The tank material is 3/16" 5052. These tanks were built for Hatteras, and I acquired them new surplus for $2/gal at Marine Surplus in Sarasota, FL. My preference for fuel guages is a dipstick through the fill hose, if that is a straight vertical run. Second choice is sight gage. Electrical guages are notoriously innacurate in boats and aircraft, don't rely on them. Cleanout ports are a mixed blessing, sometimes they develop leaks. I'd put them on top if the tops are available for access, otherwise I'd probably leave them out. The tanks should not have a flat bottom, though most tanks do. You want your fuel suction tube to go nearly to the bottom of the lowest point, and another suction tube to go all the way to the bottom, so you can suck out the worst of the water, dirt, and scum here. This cleanout tube is rarely included in tanks today. Older tanks often included a drain port at the very bottom of the tank, and a ball valve to drain off the scum. Such drains are not CG approved for gasoline use. Since the tank manufacturer can't control whether its tanks are used for gasoline or diesel, many won't put the drains in. The cleanout tube is safe for gas or diesel (though personally I prefer the drain). ===== Mark Richter, M.E., aboard M/V Winnie the Pooh, custom Morgan 46 Pilothouse Efficiency Trawler. "Mark's Mobile Marine" electrical systems repair & consulting. Homeport Stuart, FL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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