Re: [time-nuts] US New Year countdown - accurate?
You can't even get two TV's in the same house in sync with Dish Network !!
The smaller TV in the kitchen gets the feed about a second before the big
set in the living room !! Must be all that delay in the cheap coax they
use !!
73, Dick, W1KSZ
-----Original Message-----
From: "J. Forster" jfor@quikus.com
Sent: Jan 1, 2012 10:14 PM
To: "David I. Emery" die@dieconsulting.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] US New Year countdown - accurate?
I was referencing anything to an external, local reference. My comment was
the time difference between the FOX on screen timing and the ball dropping
fireworks. Presumably, the on-screen timing was inserted at their local
control center in NYC, not after satellite hops.
-John
============
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 05:54:46PM -0800, J. Forster wrote:
To me the ball drop/fireworks was different from the on-screen time on
FOX
by a few secnds.
I was watching the media pool HD satellite feed on AMC-1 and
through a broadcast grade IRD (ex PBS Bitlink ) it appeared to be about
2 seconds slow relative to my house NTP timing. This would about
exactly match what I would expect for uplink encoder, satellite path,
and decoder delays.
I would expect a TV station using that feed might add anywhere
from 1-6 seconds to the delay in their internal processing to OTA... and
a digital cable system might add further delay to that (couple of more
seconds at least).
Real time TV these days is only RELATIVELY real time.
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole -
in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
either."
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
This sounds like a perfect application for applying antenna wax to
coaxial cable.
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 22:33:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00), "Richard W. Solomon"
w1ksz@earthlink.net wrote:
You can't even get two TV's in the same house in sync with Dish Network !!
The smaller TV in the kitchen gets the feed about a second before the big
set in the living room !! Must be all that delay in the cheap coax they
use !!
A long shot, but was any time-nut actually in the square?
On Monday, 2 January 2012, David davidwhess@gmail.com wrote:
This sounds like a perfect application for applying antenna wax to
coaxial cable.
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 22:33:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00), "Richard W. Solomon"
w1ksz@earthlink.net wrote:
You can't even get two TV's in the same house in sync with Dish Network !!
The smaller TV in the kitchen gets the feed about a second before the big
set in the living room !! Must be all that delay in the cheap coax they
use !!
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
You can't even get two TV's in the same house in sync with Dish Network
!!
The smaller TV in the kitchen gets the feed about a second before the
big
set in the living room !! Must be all that delay in the cheap coax they
use !!
73, Dick, W1KSZ
.. or a simpler decompression algorithm, or faster processor....
73,
David GM8ARV
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
In message E6062910437A40A1BD2BDA3F034A4AD1@narvik, "David J Taylor" writes:
You can't even get two TV's in the same house in sync with Dish Network
!!
The smaller TV in the kitchen gets the feed about a second before the
big
set in the living room !! Must be all that delay in the cheap coax they
use !!
73, Dick, W1KSZ
.. or a simpler decompression algorithm, or faster processor....
Most likely the TV with the larger display buffers more in order to
be able to interpolate in higher quality.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
On 01/02/2012 09:19 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In messageE6062910437A40A1BD2BDA3F034A4AD1@narvik, "David J Taylor" writes:
You can't even get two TV's in the same house in sync with Dish Network
!!
The smaller TV in the kitchen gets the feed about a second before the
big
set in the living room !! Must be all that delay in the cheap coax they
use !!
73, Dick, W1KSZ
.. or a simpler decompression algorithm, or faster processor....
Most likely the TV with the larger display buffers more in order to
be able to interpolate in higher quality.
The small TV set in the kitchen might be CRT while the big one in the
living room is LCD (or any similar flat screen), and for the later
double-buffering (or more) is employed as standard. These new screens
are "slow" and create tons of artefact with standard definition TV or
just the wrong rate.
Doing low-delay uncompressed transmission across countries, continents
or between them is all at vain, when the flat-screen comes into the
loop. It is often impossible to disable it.
Cheers,
Magnus
El 02/01/2012 23:33, Magnus Danielson escribió:
The small TV set in the kitchen might be CRT while the big one in the
living room is LCD (or any similar flat screen), and for the later
double-buffering (or more) is employed as standard. These new screens
are "slow" and create tons of artefact with standard definition TV or
just the wrong rate.
In the transition time between analog and digital TV in Spain, I had an
analog TV at the kitchen and a digital LCD at the living room. Both
transmissions were from the same site, but the audio and video delay in
the digital one with respect to the analog was in the order of two
seconds. I suppose that part is on the TV, but the bigger delay is in
the transmission side :) Now, analog TV is gone, so no opportunity to
repeat the experiment.
Long time ago (~25yr), I had a friend working at Torrespaña, that is the
production and transmission center for the spanish national television,
TVE. Since I was a latent time nut then, I was interested on the
different timing systems, and he show them to me. Time distribution, for
teletext and for the clock that was shown at 3pm and 9pm during a few
seconds just before the news, was taken by a time distribution system
provided by Union Relojera Suiza (Swiss Clockwork Union or something
like that), and I don't remember exactly but I think that the time for
that system was taken from a leased line from ROA (the Real Observatory
of Spain at San Fernando, Cadiz, the official timekeepers and UTC
contributors at Spain), so it was a quite good time. Synchronisms were
generated from a HP 5061 Cs, and chroma burst was generated by a HP 5065
Rb.
Around 7 yr ago, I gave a friend a GPS driven nixie clock, and he had
fun taken a picture in which you can see that the second changes
simultaneously in the TVE teletext clock and the nixie clock (both in
screen and at the clock the second digits were superimposed), so it
seems that the discrepancy is inside an aperture time (probably 1/125 -
he was not using any special technique). He lives 2-3km from Torrespaña,
so the delay due to propagation is in the microsecond range.
From 50yr ago, in Spain a lot of people celebrates the new year with
the TVE transmission of the clock located at Puerta del Sol in Madrid,
in the center of Spain (in fact, Km 0 for the six main radial roads
starting from Madrid), and customarily people takes twelve grapes, one
at each gong of the clock. I know that it is 50yr because this year they
were celebrating the 50 anniversary of the first transmission of the
event :) Now, I know that people celebrates new year with at least 2
second delay thanks to DTV progress :)
(In my case, from long ago, I'm out of Spain for new year, at the place
where the local people celebrates the event - this year, Rathaus
building clock in Vienna :) )
A bit late, but happy new year to all!!!!
Regards,
Javier
El 03/01/2012 00:48, Javier Herrero escribió:
Around 7 yr ago, I gave a friend a GPS driven nixie clock, and he had
fun taken a picture in which you can see that the second changes
simultaneously in the TVE teletext clock and the nixie clock (both in
screen and at the clock the second digits were superimposed), so it
seems that the discrepancy is inside an aperture time (probably 1/125
- he was not using any special technique). He lives 2-3km from
Torrespaña, so the delay due to propagation is in the microsecond range.
A clarification: the discrepancy WAS inside the aperture time: it was
analog TV then. Now, teletext time seems to have its own soul...
differences are even larger than 2 seconds...
Regards,
Javier
On 1/2/2012 3:48 PM, Javier Herrero wrote:
El 02/01/2012 23:33, Magnus Danielson escribió:
The small TV set in the kitchen might be CRT while the big one in the
living room is LCD (or any similar flat screen), and for the later
double-buffering (or more) is employed as standard. These new screens
are "slow" and create tons of artefact with standard definition TV or
just the wrong rate.
In the transition time between analog and digital TV in Spain, I had
an analog TV at the kitchen and a digital LCD at the living room. Both
transmissions were from the same site, but the audio and video delay
in the digital one with respect to the analog was in the order of two
seconds. I suppose that part is on the TV, but the bigger delay is in
the transmission side :) Now, analog TV is gone, so no opportunity to
repeat the experiment.
We do not have Analog signals to check with, as in over the air here in
Orange County, Ca. Over the air digital is available, but I have never
hooked up an antenna to try to receive it, just on cable here.
What I noticed last night was that the analog tv we have was about 5
seconds slow. It is analog because it is hooked to the CCTV analog
channels, by way of explanation.
the digital converter, HD DVR and the analog feed all come over the same
cable, but are all different in time. the HD DVR receiver can be ahead
or behind the analog signal, and the digital converter is usually ahead
of the analog.
I'm not familiar with the encoding or feed of each of these, but they
clearly are coming from separate buffered sources.
I used several "satellite" clocks which all were in time as my
reference, nothing as fancy as all you have online. I lost my favorite
toy when the 468dc clocks went away, and have not gotten anything to
replace it.
Jim