Purple gallinule
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by those
more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be more
than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I can be
contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
Personally I would not be in favour of catching the bird - it does not appear badly injured (it appears to be feeding well, can move its wing more or less normally, and can certainly fly short distances). Even if that were not the case I think that in all but exceptional circumstances it is better to let nature take its course however sad that may seem (note that it is normal for most young birds to die in their first year). That said I'm probably just a cold hearted cynic (ok, the " probably" is misleading).
But, if someone does plan to do something they should make certain that they are acting in accordance with state and federal laws, which both require permits for captures of (most) wild birds. There is a Good Samaritan clause for certain cases involving injuries, but it is perhaps arguable that this case fits the bill.
Chris
Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
@ssts
On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:47, Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com [nosbird] nosbird@yahoogroups.com wrote:
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by those more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be more than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I can be contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
.,._
Posted by: Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com
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Exactly. Well said Chris.
Mark Szantyr
On Oct 1, 2015, at 2:11 PM, elphick@sbcglobal.net [nosbird] nosbird@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Personally I would not be in favour of catching the bird - it does not appear badly injured (it appears to be feeding well, can move its wing more or less normally, and can certainly fly short distances). Even if that were not the case I think that in all but exceptional circumstances it is better to let nature take its course however sad that may seem (note that it is normal for most young birds to die in their first year). That said I'm probably just a cold hearted cynic (ok, the " probably" is misleading).
But, if someone does plan to do something they should make certain that they are acting in accordance with state and federal laws, which both require permits for captures of (most) wild birds. There is a Good Samaritan clause for certain cases involving injuries, but it is perhaps arguable that this case fits the bill.
Chris
Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
@ssts
On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:47, Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com [nosbird] nosbird@yahoogroups.com wrote:
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by those more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be more than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I can be contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
.,._
Posted by: elphick@sbcglobal.net
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Agreed. Thank you Chris.
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
Original Message
From: Mark Szantyr via CTBirds
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2015 2:16 PM
To: nosbird@yahoogroups.com; elphick@sbcglobal.net
Reply To: Mark Szantyr
Cc: Tricia Reid; ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org
Subject: Re: [CT Birds] [NOSbird] Purple gallinule
Exactly. Well said Chris.
Mark Szantyr
On Oct 1, 2015, at 2:11 PM, elphick@sbcglobal.net [nosbird] nosbird@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Personally I would not be in favour of catching the bird - it does not appear badly injured (it appears to be feeding well, can move its wing more or less normally, and can certainly fly short distances). Even if that were not the case I think that in all but exceptional circumstances it is better to let nature take its course however sad that may seem (note that it is normal for most young birds to die in their first year). That said I'm probably just a cold hearted cynic (ok, the " probably" is misleading).
But, if someone does plan to do something they should make certain that they are acting in accordance with state and federal laws, which both require permits for captures of (most) wild birds. There is a Good Samaritan clause for certain cases involving injuries, but it is perhaps arguable that this case fits the bill.
Chris
Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
@ssts
On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:47, Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com [nosbird] nosbird@yahoogroups.com wrote:
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by those more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be more than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I can be contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
.,._
Posted by: elphick@sbcglobal.net
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I also agree with Chris's statement. The bird may not be 100% well, but we
might have to let nature take its course and not interfere. I hope the
bird will be doing well.
Aidan Kiley
Fairfield
On Oct 1, 2015 2:14 PM, "Chris Elphick via CTBirds" <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org> wrote:
Personally I would not be in favour of catching the bird - it does not
appear badly injured (it appears to be feeding well, can move its wing more
or less normally, and can certainly fly short distances). Even if that
were not the case I think that in all but exceptional circumstances it is
better to let nature take its course however sad that may seem (note that
it is normal for most young birds to die in their first year). That said
I'm probably just a cold hearted cynic (ok, the " probably" is misleading).
But, if someone does plan to do something they should make certain that
they are acting in accordance with state and federal laws, which both
require permits for captures of (most) wild birds. There is a Good
Samaritan clause for certain cases involving injuries, but it is perhaps
arguable that this case fits the bill.
Chris
Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
@ssts
On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:47, Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com [nosbird] <
nosbird@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by
those more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be
more than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I can
be contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
.,._
Posted by: Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group •
Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (1)
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I respectfully disagree. In a perfect world, I think nature taking its course would be the right thing. But we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where bird populations are dramatically declining due to our poor stewardship -- habitat loss, global warming, etc. So I think that if a bird is truly injured (and perhaps this bird is not), we should always help it out if we can.
Lisa White
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 1, 2015, at 2:47 PM, Aidan Kiley via CTBirds ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org wrote:
I also agree with Chris's statement. The bird may not be 100% well, but we
might have to let nature take its course and not interfere. I hope the
bird will be doing well.
Aidan Kiley
Fairfield
On Oct 1, 2015 2:14 PM, "Chris Elphick via CTBirds" <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org> wrote:
Personally I would not be in favour of catching the bird - it does not
appear badly injured (it appears to be feeding well, can move its wing more
or less normally, and can certainly fly short distances). Even if that
were not the case I think that in all but exceptional circumstances it is
better to let nature take its course however sad that may seem (note that
it is normal for most young birds to die in their first year). That said
I'm probably just a cold hearted cynic (ok, the " probably" is misleading).
But, if someone does plan to do something they should make certain that
they are acting in accordance with state and federal laws, which both
require permits for captures of (most) wild birds. There is a Good
Samaritan clause for certain cases involving injuries, but it is perhaps
arguable that this case fits the bill.
Chris
Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
@ssts
On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:47, Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com [nosbird] <
nosbird@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by
those more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be
more than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I can
be contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
.,._
Posted by: Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com
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I agree that this bird should be left to live or die naturally. Humans
can't "fix" everything, even things caused by humans.
Just my opinion.
On Thursday, October 1, 2015, Lisa White via CTBirds <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org> wrote:
I respectfully disagree. In a perfect world, I think nature taking its
course would be the right thing. But we don't live in a perfect world. We
live in a world where bird populations are dramatically declining due to
our poor stewardship -- habitat loss, global warming, etc. So I think that
if a bird is truly injured (and perhaps this bird is not), we should always
help it out if we can.
Lisa White
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 1, 2015, at 2:47 PM, Aidan Kiley via CTBirds <
I also agree with Chris's statement. The bird may not be 100% well, but
we
might have to let nature take its course and not interfere. I hope the
bird will be doing well.
Aidan Kiley
Fairfield
On Oct 1, 2015 2:14 PM, "Chris Elphick via CTBirds" <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org javascript:;> wrote:
Personally I would not be in favour of catching the bird - it does not
appear badly injured (it appears to be feeding well, can move its wing
more
or less normally, and can certainly fly short distances). Even if that
were not the case I think that in all but exceptional circumstances it
is
better to let nature take its course however sad that may seem (note
that
it is normal for most young birds to die in their first year). That said
I'm probably just a cold hearted cynic (ok, the " probably" is
misleading).
But, if someone does plan to do something they should make certain that
they are acting in accordance with state and federal laws, which both
require permits for captures of (most) wild birds. There is a Good
Samaritan clause for certain cases involving injuries, but it is perhaps
arguable that this case fits the bill.
Chris
Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
@ssts
On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:47, Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com
javascript:; [nosbird] <
nosbird@yahoogroups.com javascript:;> wrote:
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by
those more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be
more than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I
can
be contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com javascript:;.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
.,._
Posted by: Tricia Reid <reidtri@gmail.com javascript:;>
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,.,_
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Christopher Lovell
ctlovell@gmail.com
Since we have wildlife rehabbers, and the bird seems injured beyond its ability to migrate, given the opportunity for safe capture, how is this not an obvious case for rehabbing?
On Oct 1, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Christopher Lovell via CTBirds ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org wrote:
I agree that this bird should be left to live or die naturally. Humans
can't "fix" everything, even things caused by humans.
Just my opinion.
On Thursday, October 1, 2015, Lisa White via CTBirds <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org> wrote:
I respectfully disagree. In a perfect world, I think nature taking its
course would be the right thing. But we don't live in a perfect world. We
live in a world where bird populations are dramatically declining due to
our poor stewardship -- habitat loss, global warming, etc. So I think that
if a bird is truly injured (and perhaps this bird is not), we should always
help it out if we can.
Lisa White
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 1, 2015, at 2:47 PM, Aidan Kiley via CTBirds <
I also agree with Chris's statement. The bird may not be 100% well, but
we
might have to let nature take its course and not interfere. I hope the
bird will be doing well.
Aidan Kiley
Fairfield
On Oct 1, 2015 2:14 PM, "Chris Elphick via CTBirds" <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org javascript:;> wrote:
Personally I would not be in favour of catching the bird - it does not
appear badly injured (it appears to be feeding well, can move its wing
more
or less normally, and can certainly fly short distances). Even if that
were not the case I think that in all but exceptional circumstances it
is
better to let nature take its course however sad that may seem (note
that
it is normal for most young birds to die in their first year). That said
I'm probably just a cold hearted cynic (ok, the " probably" is
misleading).
But, if someone does plan to do something they should make certain that
they are acting in accordance with state and federal laws, which both
require permits for captures of (most) wild birds. There is a Good
Samaritan clause for certain cases involving injuries, but it is perhaps
arguable that this case fits the bill.
Chris
Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
@ssts
On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:47, Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com
javascript:; [nosbird] <
nosbird@yahoogroups.com javascript:;> wrote:
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by
those more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be
more than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I
can
be contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com javascript:;.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
.,._
Posted by: Tricia Reid <reidtri@gmail.com javascript:;>
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,.,_
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This list is provided by the Connecticut Ornithological Association
(COA) for the discussion of birds and birding in Connecticut.
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ctlovell@gmail.com
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I agree that this bird should be left alone. My reasoning behind this is simple.. The bird ended up incredibly off course with no major weather events (that I'm aware of) to throw it this far North. In doing so, the bird was injured. If this bird is too injured to find it's way back south, this (in my opinion) is natures way of removing the individual from the gene pool and essentially in the long run, protecting the species. Natural selection at work. No need to stress the bird out more by capturing it and then booking it a flight to Florida.
Stefan Martin
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 1, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Arthur Shippee via CTBirds ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org wrote:
Since we have wildlife rehabbers, and the bird seems injured beyond its ability to migrate, given the opportunity for safe capture, how is this not an obvious case for rehabbing?
On Oct 1, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Christopher Lovell via CTBirds ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org wrote:
I agree that this bird should be left to live or die naturally. Humans
can't "fix" everything, even things caused by humans.
Just my opinion.
On Thursday, October 1, 2015, Lisa White via CTBirds <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org> wrote:
I respectfully disagree. In a perfect world, I think nature taking its
course would be the right thing. But we don't live in a perfect world. We
live in a world where bird populations are dramatically declining due to
our poor stewardship -- habitat loss, global warming, etc. So I think that
if a bird is truly injured (and perhaps this bird is not), we should always
help it out if we can.
Lisa White
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 1, 2015, at 2:47 PM, Aidan Kiley via CTBirds <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org javascript:;> wrote:
I also agree with Chris's statement. The bird may not be 100% well, but
we
might have to let nature take its course and not interfere. I hope the
bird will be doing well.
Aidan Kiley
Fairfield
On Oct 1, 2015 2:14 PM, "Chris Elphick via CTBirds" <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org javascript:;> wrote:
Personally I would not be in favour of catching the bird - it does not
appear badly injured (it appears to be feeding well, can move its wing
more
or less normally, and can certainly fly short distances). Even if that
were not the case I think that in all but exceptional circumstances it
is
better to let nature take its course however sad that may seem (note
that
it is normal for most young birds to die in their first year). That said
I'm probably just a cold hearted cynic (ok, the " probably" is
misleading).
But, if someone does plan to do something they should make certain that
they are acting in accordance with state and federal laws, which both
require permits for captures of (most) wild birds. There is a Good
Samaritan clause for certain cases involving injuries, but it is perhaps
arguable that this case fits the bill.
Chris
Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
@ssts
On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:47, Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com
javascript:; [nosbird] <
nosbird@yahoogroups.com javascript:;> wrote:
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by
those more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be
more than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I
can
be contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com javascript:;.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
.,._
Posted by: Tricia Reid <reidtri@gmail.com javascript:;>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group •
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This list is provided by the Connecticut Ornithological Association
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--
Christopher Lovell
ctlovell@gmail.com
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Hi Lisa,
I completely agree that there is much to do in order to address the many harms we've inflicted on wildlife. I've spent my entire career trying to do that. As I indicated in my original email, there are certainly some cases where capture might be appropriate. If it were a whooping crane or a black robin, I might feel very differently (though the legal issues there would be an order of magnitude more complex!).
But, this is a species with a large geographic range, a global population that is likely in the 100,000s, not known to be declining rangewide (though there is weak evidence that hints at a possible decline in the US - but it's very weak evidence), and for which habitat loss is unlikely to be a major issue. For all these reasons it is ranked as "Least Concern" in systematic assessments of the status of the world's bird populations. It is also an individual that is far outside its normal range and so unlikely to contribute to the population's ability to thrive, and that under normal circumstances would have had a high chance of dying anyway (because most young birds do ... in fact in the species' I study even adults have a about 40-50% chance of dying every year ... not because of anything that humans do, but because that is typical in most birds).
I do totally understand your concerns, and think that they are critically important things to worry about. I just don't see any way that capturing this bird will address any of them. The solutions to most bird declines center around protecting habitat, consuming less, driving less, and so on. There are sometimes very good reasons for rehabilitating injured birds, but conservation is rarely one of them.
I hope this helps explain my thinking. And if you continue to disagree, that's just fine too :).
Best wishes,
Chris
Chris Elphick @ssts
Storrs, CT
elphick@sbcglobal.net
From: Lisa White madalynwhite@aol.com
To: Aidan Kiley eezambo@gmail.com
Cc: elphick@sbcglobal.net; Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com; ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2015 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [CT Birds] [NOSbird] Purple gallinule
I respectfully disagree. In a perfect world, I think nature taking its course would be the right thing. But we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where bird populations are dramatically declining due to our poor stewardship -- habitat loss, global warming, etc. So I think that if a bird is truly injured (and perhaps this bird is not), we should always help it out if we can.
Lisa White
I wild note that a permit is not required to capture an injured or orphaned wild bird and bring it promptly to a licensed wildlife rehabilitator. No Good Samaritan clause is in play here.
Also, a wild bird that cannot fly IS considered badly injured, since it cannot survive the winter in that condition.
The challenge here is that it is easier said than done to capture an injured bird which has any flight capability at all.
But, having witnessed (through volunteering) the successful rehabilitation of many migratory birds by those who have received the training and have the experience to do so, I would hope that someone will attempt to capture it and bring it into rehabilitation.
In my opinion, wIldlife has enough challenges with loss of habitat, avoiding car/window collisions and dog/cat attacks, as well as other human-caused threats, for us to do nothing.
I would hope that someone who is able and has some basic equipment (e.g. Long handled net, towels, cat carrier etc.) will be able to capture the bird and bring it to a licensed rehabilitator. I read elsewhere that Jayne Neville, an experienced migratory bird rehabilitator, has offered to take the bird in for rehabilitation.
Carole Donagher
Farmington
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 1, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Chris Elphick via CTBirds ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org wrote:
Personally I would not be in favour of catching the bird - it does not appear badly injured (it appears to be feeding well, can move its wing more or less normally, and can certainly fly short distances). Even if that were not the case I think that in all but exceptional circumstances it is better to let nature take its course however sad that may seem (note that it is normal for most young birds to die in their first year). That said I'm probably just a cold hearted cynic (ok, the " probably" is misleading).
But, if someone does plan to do something they should make certain that they are acting in accordance with state and federal laws, which both require permits for captures of (most) wild birds. There is a Good Samaritan clause for certain cases involving injuries, but it is perhaps arguable that this case fits the bill.
Chris
Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
@ssts
On Oct 1, 2015, at 13:47, Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com [nosbird] nosbird@yahoogroups.com wrote:
As the person who made the initial sighting, if a decision is made by those more experienced than I to attempt to capture the bird, I would be more than willing to put on my wellies and tromp through the swamp. I can be contacted off list at reidtri@gmail.com.
Tricia Reid, Mansfield Center
.,._
Posted by: Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com
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Why not ensure the well-being of this bird? It is obviously injured, and
apparently cannot fly. With cold temperatures arriving soon, doing nothing
will likely lead to its (premature) death. There may be "weak evidence"
that this species's population is in decline, yet science indicates that
its habitat is threatened by wetland destruction and increasing sea levels,
which humankind is mostly responsible for. So, should we take
responsibility for the consequences of human impacts on gallinule habitat?
If yes, then save this bird.
Bluebirds are not especially endangered, but that does not keep me from
building, installing and monitoring bluebird nest boxes to protect their
populations from the continuing assault of habitat loss and invasive
species infestation (i.e. starlings and house sparrows.) Purple gallinules
deserve no less from us.
Scientists provide us valuable insights into nature. Their disposition
toward numbers, rather than heart, should be respected. Yet, our hearts
lend us to believe that good conservation advances in baby steps, such as
mending this bird and returning it to its normal range, and then, of
course, working to protect its habitat.
On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Chris Elphick via CTBirds <
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org> wrote:
Hi Lisa,
I completely agree that there is much to do in order to address the many
harms we've inflicted on wildlife. I've spent my entire career trying to
do that. As I indicated in my original email, there are certainly some
cases where capture might be appropriate. If it were a whooping crane or a
black robin, I might feel very differently (though the legal issues there
would be an order of magnitude more complex!).
But, this is a species with a large geographic range, a global population
that is likely in the 100,000s, not known to be declining rangewide (though
there is weak evidence that hints at a possible decline in the US - but
it's very weak evidence), and for which habitat loss is unlikely to be a
major issue. For all these reasons it is ranked as "Least Concern" in
systematic assessments of the status of the world's bird populations. It
is also an individual that is far outside its normal range and so unlikely
to contribute to the population's ability to thrive, and that under normal
circumstances would have had a high chance of dying anyway (because most
young birds do ... in fact in the species' I study even adults have a about
40-50% chance of dying every year ... not because of anything that humans
do, but because that is typical in most birds).
I do totally understand your concerns, and think that they are critically
important things to worry about. I just don't see any way that capturing
this bird will address any of them. The solutions to most bird declines
center around protecting habitat, consuming less, driving less, and so on.
There are sometimes very good reasons for rehabilitating injured birds, but
conservation is rarely one of them.
I hope this helps explain my thinking. And if you continue to disagree,
that's just fine too :).
Best wishes,
Chris
Chris Elphick @ssts
Storrs, CT
elphick@sbcglobal.net
From: Lisa White madalynwhite@aol.com
To: Aidan Kiley eezambo@gmail.com
Cc: elphick@sbcglobal.net; Tricia Reid reidtri@gmail.com;
ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2015 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [CT Birds] [NOSbird] Purple gallinule
I respectfully disagree. In a perfect world, I think nature taking its
course would be the right thing. But we don't live in a perfect world. We
live in a world where bird populations are dramatically declining due to
our poor stewardship -- habitat loss, global warming, etc. So I think that
if a bird is truly injured (and perhaps this bird is not), we should always
help it out if we can.
Lisa White
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Hi Tom,
You are absolutely right that conservation should not be restricted to endangered species, and I'm a strong advocate for the mantra of "keeping common birds common". The bluebird analogy is a poor one however. There is good reason to believe that nest sites for bluebirds have declined due to a reduction of snags and natural tree cavities in the landscape. Building nest boxes directly addresses that issue, and so it is not unreasonable to think that it might help bluebird populations. It is very hard to see, however, how capturing this bird will help protect wetlands or reverse sea level rise. And science tells us very clearly that prolonging the life of one individual in a population of this size will have no appreciable effect on that population's ability to persist. As I said previously the solution to that problem is protecting habitat and for every one of us (me included, perhaps especially) to get much more serious about reducing consumption.
I don't disagree that there are other reasons to capture this bird, but it is very clear that conservation is not one of them. Moreover, the evidence that it cannot fly, or that it won't survive is circumstantial at best. I've seen it fly short distances, wing stretch, etc. It clearly has some injury, but it can certainly use the wing and it is not all that unusual to see birds in a similar state. There is certainly a risk it might die, but for an out of range bird with winter coming, that would be true even if it were not injured. Close to half the birds currently in CT will die in the next year - that is normal (and would be the case even if humans were not around). Given this bird's mobility, my guess (having caught 1000s of birds of 100s of species over the years) is that it could be hard to catch, and there is a risk of doing more damage by trying to capture such a mobile bird (though spotlighting or a walk-in rail trap could certainly work, especially if done by someone with appropriate experience). Maybe that risk is worth it, maybe not. For these reasons, I reiterate, I personally would not attempt to capture it. Of course, you and others are welcome to disagree.
I promised Roy last night that I would not prolong this debate on the list and I doubt that I have much more to contribute at this point. If you or others would like to continue the discussion off-line, I'd be happy to do that.
Best,
Chris
Chris Elphick @ssts
Storrs, CT
elphick@sbcglobal.net