BI
Burt I. Weiner
Mon, Jun 17, 2013 9:41 PM
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
Burt, K6OQK
From: Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com
At 02:08 PM 6/17/2013, time-nuts-request@febo.com wrote
Yes, I see what it does. It is a simple circuit. But I just thought
(wrongly, now I see) that the 8170 somehow used the 60KHz signal for some
purpose. I gues not, It is just a carrier that is discarded.
Some receivers used the 60HKz signal as a 60KHz frequency reference and
phase locked their internal clock to the 60KHz signal. I gues the 8170
does not do that.
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
Burt, K6OQK
From: Chris Albertson <albertson.chris@gmail.com>
At 02:08 PM 6/17/2013, time-nuts-request@febo.com wrote
>Yes, I see what it does. It is a simple circuit. But I just thought
>(wrongly, now I see) that the 8170 somehow used the 60KHz signal for some
>purpose. I gues not, It is just a carrier that is discarded.
>
>Some receivers used the 60HKz signal as a 60KHz frequency reference and
>phase locked their internal clock to the 60KHz signal. I gues the 8170
>does not do that.
Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California U.S.A.
biwa@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK
DI
David I. Emery
Mon, Jun 17, 2013 9:57 PM
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
with the right AM modulation ?
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
> Chris,
>
> The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
> tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
> the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
> I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
> readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
> to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
> with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
> with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
> precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
> opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
>
> The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
> lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
> scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
> original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
> wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
> had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
> WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
> 8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
> an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
> different direction for one of the other clocks.
I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
with the right AM modulation ?
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
BC
Bob Camp
Mon, Jun 17, 2013 10:11 PM
Hi
The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output modulator.
Bob
On Jun 17, 2013, at 5:57 PM, "David I. Emery" die@dieconsulting.com wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
with the right AM modulation ?
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output modulator.
Bob
On Jun 17, 2013, at 5:57 PM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
>> Chris,
>>
>> The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
>> tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
>> the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
>> I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
>> readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
>> to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
>> with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
>> with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
>> precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
>> opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
>>
>> The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
>> lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
>> scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
>> original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
>> wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
>> had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
>> WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
>> 8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
>> an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
>> different direction for one of the other clocks.
>
> I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
> Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
> with the right AM modulation ?
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Tue, Jun 18, 2013 1:04 AM
Exactly as Bob says. Though at the time I built the costas loop I did not
build the remodulator. Just time. Pun intended.
But indeed they add together for those that need both time and frequency.
If you just want time the remodulator is far far simpler.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 6:11 PM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no need
for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output modulator.
Bob
On Jun 17, 2013, at 5:57 PM, "David I. Emery" die@dieconsulting.com
wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
with the right AM modulation ?
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
and follow the instructions there.
Exactly as Bob says. Though at the time I built the costas loop I did not
build the remodulator. Just time. Pun intended.
But indeed they add together for those that need both time and frequency.
If you just want time the remodulator is far far simpler.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 6:11 PM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Hi
>
> The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no need
> for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output modulator.
>
> Bob
>
> On Jun 17, 2013, at 5:57 PM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
> >> Chris,
> >>
> >> The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
> >> tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
> >> the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
> >> I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
> >> readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
> >> to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
> >> with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
> >> with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
> >> precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
> >> opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
> >>
> >> The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
> >> lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
> >> scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
> >> original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
> >> wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
> >> had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
> >> WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
> >> 8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
> >> an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
> >> different direction for one of the other clocks.
> >
> > I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
> > Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
> > with the right AM modulation ?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
> Mass 02493
> > "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> > 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole
> - in
> > celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
> either."
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
DI
David I. Emery
Tue, Jun 18, 2013 1:29 AM
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
modulator.
That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
with the right AM modulation ?
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
> need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
> modulator.
That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
>
> Bob
>
> On Jun 17, 2013, at 5:57 PM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
> >> Chris,
> >>
> >> The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
> >> tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
> >> the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
> >> I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
> >> readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
> >> to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
> >> with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
> >> with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
> >> precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
> >> opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
> >>
> >> The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
> >> lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
> >> scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
> >> original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
> >> wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
> >> had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
> >> WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
> >> 8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
> >> an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
> >> different direction for one of the other clocks.
> >
> > I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
> > Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
> > with the right AM modulation ?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
> > "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> > 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
> > celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
PS
paul swed
Tue, Jun 18, 2013 1:35 AM
Wellll as they say. I am most likely going to use a simple phase flipper.
That preserves all of the Nist stuff and traceability and such. A flipper
is simply a invert or non inverted signal and a switch. It is subject to
propagation. But no more so than the original receivers.
The remodulator gets rid of the carrier for time clocks.
Both are actually reasonable to implement.
Enough said other things to do.
Paul
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, David I. Emery die@dieconsulting.comwrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
modulator.
That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
with the right AM modulation ?
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Wellll as they say. I am most likely going to use a simple phase flipper.
That preserves all of the Nist stuff and traceability and such. A flipper
is simply a invert or non inverted signal and a switch. It is subject to
propagation. But no more so than the original receivers.
The remodulator gets rid of the carrier for time clocks.
Both are actually reasonable to implement.
Enough said other things to do.
Paul
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, David I. Emery <die@dieconsulting.com>wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
> > Hi
> >
>
> > The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
> > need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
> > modulator.
>
> That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
> looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
> kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
> serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
> fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
>
> But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
> one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
> both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2013, at 5:57 PM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
> > >> Chris,
> > >>
> > >> The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
> > >> tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
> > >> the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
> > >> I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
> > >> readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
> > >> to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
> > >> with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
> > >> with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
> > >> precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
> > >> opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
> > >>
> > >> The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
> > >> lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
> > >> scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
> > >> original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
> > >> wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
> > >> had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
> > >> WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
> > >> 8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
> > >> an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
> > >> different direction for one of the other clocks.
> > >
> > > I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
> > > Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
> > > with the right AM modulation ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
> Mass 02493
> > > "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> > > 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted
> pole - in
> > > celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
> either."
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> --
> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
> Mass 02493
> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole -
> in
> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
> either."
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
DI
David I. Emery
Tue, Jun 18, 2013 1:57 AM
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 09:35:51PM -0400, paul swed wrote:
Wellll as they say. I am most likely going to use a simple phase flipper.
That preserves all of the Nist stuff and traceability and such. A flipper
is simply a invert or non inverted signal and a switch. It is subject to
propagation. But no more so than the original receivers.
The remodulator gets rid of the carrier for time clocks.
Both are actually reasonable to implement.
Enough said other things to do.
Paul
OK, clearly there is an advantage to that...
Does preserve the original carrier for traceability (sorta,
it does get inverted in phase from time to time)...
And the actual I channel of a Costas loop directly out of the I
double balanced mixer should have a plus and minus signal one could low
pass filter and feed to a simple zero cross detector to control the
phase flip. And if this is done by flipping carrier out of the TRF
stage via a DBM or analog switch and inverter it should preserve the AM
modulation on the original unless the TRF stage acts as a limiter...
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 09:35:51PM -0400, paul swed wrote:
> Wellll as they say. I am most likely going to use a simple phase flipper.
> That preserves all of the Nist stuff and traceability and such. A flipper
> is simply a invert or non inverted signal and a switch. It is subject to
> propagation. But no more so than the original receivers.
> The remodulator gets rid of the carrier for time clocks.
> Both are actually reasonable to implement.
> Enough said other things to do.
> Paul
OK, clearly there is an advantage to that...
Does preserve the original carrier for traceability (sorta,
it does get inverted in phase from time to time)...
And the actual I channel of a Costas loop directly out of the I
double balanced mixer should have a plus and minus signal one could low
pass filter and feed to a simple zero cross detector to control the
phase flip. And if this is done by flipping carrier out of the TRF
stage via a DBM or analog switch and inverter it should preserve the AM
modulation on the original unless the TRF stage acts as a limiter...
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
BC
Bob Camp
Tue, Jun 18, 2013 10:41 AM
Hi
I don't know of any phase tracking receiver that would be bothered by the modulator in Paul's schematic. You could implement it a couple of ways, but the net result would be the same. The AM is a bit more square wave than the WWVB signal. Modulation depth and timing would / could be dead on.
Bob
On Jun 17, 2013, at 9:29 PM, David I. Emery die@dieconsulting.com wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
modulator.
That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
with the right AM modulation ?
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
I don't know of any phase tracking receiver that would be bothered by the modulator in Paul's schematic. You could implement it a couple of ways, but the net result would be the same. The AM is a bit more square wave than the WWVB signal. Modulation depth and timing would / could be dead on.
Bob
On Jun 17, 2013, at 9:29 PM, David I. Emery <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>
>> The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
>> need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
>> modulator.
>
> That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
> looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
> kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
> serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
> fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
>
> But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
> one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
> both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2013, at 5:57 PM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
>>>> Chris,
>>>>
>>>> The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
>>>> tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
>>>> the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
>>>> I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
>>>> readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
>>>> to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
>>>> with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
>>>> with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
>>>> precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
>>>> opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
>>>>
>>>> The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
>>>> lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
>>>> scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
>>>> original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
>>>> wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
>>>> had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
>>>> WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
>>>> 8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
>>>> an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
>>>> different direction for one of the other clocks.
>>>
>>> I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
>>> Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
>>> with the right AM modulation ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
>>> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
>>> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
>>> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> --
> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Tue, Jun 18, 2013 2:52 PM
Interesting the HC will work all the way down to 2.2V so everything can be
run from 3 Volts.
No idea as to the effect of the xtal oscillator maybe the 3.9 M R needs to
be changed.
It also appears that the HC chip may doing the lions share of current
consumption. Spec sheet says up to 20 Ma. Hard to believe actually.
As for driving lengths of wire over distance it needs to be a buffer chip.
74hc244. But that seems like serious overkill it can drive 20 ma per port.
Maybe a cd 4049...
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
I don't know of any phase tracking receiver that would be bothered by the
modulator in Paul's schematic. You could implement it a couple of ways, but
the net result would be the same. The AM is a bit more square wave than
the WWVB signal. Modulation depth and timing would / could be dead on.
Bob
On Jun 17, 2013, at 9:29 PM, David I. Emery die@dieconsulting.com wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
modulator.
That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
with the right AM modulation ?
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
and follow the instructions there.
Interesting the HC will work all the way down to 2.2V so everything can be
run from 3 Volts.
No idea as to the effect of the xtal oscillator maybe the 3.9 M R needs to
be changed.
It also appears that the HC chip may doing the lions share of current
consumption. Spec sheet says up to 20 Ma. Hard to believe actually.
As for driving lengths of wire over distance it needs to be a buffer chip.
74hc244. But that seems like serious overkill it can drive 20 ma per port.
Maybe a cd 4049...
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I don't know of any phase tracking receiver that would be bothered by the
> modulator in Paul's schematic. You could implement it a couple of ways, but
> the net result would be the same. The AM is a bit more square wave than
> the WWVB signal. Modulation depth and timing would / could be dead on.
>
> Bob
>
> On Jun 17, 2013, at 9:29 PM, David I. Emery <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >
> >> The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
> >> need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
> >> modulator.
> >
> > That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
> > looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
> > kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
> > serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
> > fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
> >
> > But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
> > one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
> > both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> On Jun 17, 2013, at 5:57 PM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
> >>>> Chris,
> >>>>
> >>>> The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
> >>>> tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
> >>>> the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
> >>>> I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
> >>>> readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
> >>>> to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
> >>>> with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
> >>>> with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
> >>>> precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
> >>>> opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
> >>>>
> >>>> The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
> >>>> lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
> >>>> scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
> >>>> original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
> >>>> wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
> >>>> had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
> >>>> WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
> >>>> 8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
> >>>> an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
> >>>> different direction for one of the other clocks.
> >>>
> >>> I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
> >>> Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
> >>> with the right AM modulation ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
> Mass 02493
> >>> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> >>> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted
> pole - in
> >>> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
> either."
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > --
> > Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
> Mass 02493
> > "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> > 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole
> - in
> > celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
> either."
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
BC
Bob Camp
Tue, Jun 18, 2013 4:32 PM
Hi
The receiver you are driving with the modulator should be quite happy with >
300 mV p-p as a signal level. There's no need to put 3, 4 or 5 V out of the
beast. If you have a 500 ohm to 50 ohm L pad on the gate, it should not draw
much current at all to drive the load. I think that keeping the level as low
as possible is a good idea RF wise. You don't want leakage of the local
signal masking the real WWVB.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:52 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remodulator for the Spectracom 8170...
Interesting the HC will work all the way down to 2.2V so everything can be
run from 3 Volts.
No idea as to the effect of the xtal oscillator maybe the 3.9 M R needs to
be changed.
It also appears that the HC chip may doing the lions share of current
consumption. Spec sheet says up to 20 Ma. Hard to believe actually.
As for driving lengths of wire over distance it needs to be a buffer chip.
74hc244. But that seems like serious overkill it can drive 20 ma per port.
Maybe a cd 4049...
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
I don't know of any phase tracking receiver that would be bothered by the
modulator in Paul's schematic. You could implement it a couple of ways,
the net result would be the same. The AM is a bit more square wave than
the WWVB signal. Modulation depth and timing would / could be dead on.
Bob
On Jun 17, 2013, at 9:29 PM, David I. Emery die@dieconsulting.com wrote:
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
modulator.
That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
Chris,
The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
different direction for one of the other clocks.
I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
with the right AM modulation ?
--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The receiver you are driving with the modulator should be quite happy with >
300 mV p-p as a signal level. There's no need to put 3, 4 or 5 V out of the
beast. If you have a 500 ohm to 50 ohm L pad on the gate, it should not draw
much current at all to drive the load. I think that keeping the level as low
as possible is a good idea RF wise. You don't want leakage of the local
signal masking the real WWVB.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:52 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remodulator for the Spectracom 8170...
Interesting the HC will work all the way down to 2.2V so everything can be
run from 3 Volts.
No idea as to the effect of the xtal oscillator maybe the 3.9 M R needs to
be changed.
It also appears that the HC chip may doing the lions share of current
consumption. Spec sheet says up to 20 Ma. Hard to believe actually.
As for driving lengths of wire over distance it needs to be a buffer chip.
74hc244. But that seems like serious overkill it can drive 20 ma per port.
Maybe a cd 4049...
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I don't know of any phase tracking receiver that would be bothered by the
> modulator in Paul's schematic. You could implement it a couple of ways,
but
> the net result would be the same. The AM is a bit more square wave than
> the WWVB signal. Modulation depth and timing would / could be dead on.
>
> Bob
>
> On Jun 17, 2013, at 9:29 PM, David I. Emery <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 06:11:15PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >
> >> The Costas loop already has the AM component available. There's no
> >> need for a second receiver, just wire the AM output over to the output
> >> modulator.
> >
> > That is standard for most Costas loops with an I arm... haven't
> > looked at his schematics carefully yet... possibly one might need some
> > kind of AGC to use it as input to a second double balanced mixer
> > serving as modulator in order to get the right 14 (?) db AM as signal
> > fades slowly. Not sure how deep the diurnal fades are...
> >
> > But I guess if everything is quite linear over enough of a range
> > one could perhaps just remodulate without AGC and create a replica of
> > both the modulation and fades on the local 60 KHz carrier.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> On Jun 17, 2013, at 5:57 PM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:41:13PM -0700, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
> >>>> Chris,
> >>>>
> >>>> The 8170 was originally intended to be a frequency reference source
> >>>> tied to the USFS (United Stated Frequency Standard). It also gave
> >>>> the time of day, but I believe that wasn't it's primary purpose. As
> >>>> I recall, there were some versions that did not have the clock
> >>>> readout and some that had a chart recorder. Back in the 80's I used
> >>>> to drool (it was a disgusting sight!) over the Spectracom receivers
> >>>> with the chart recorders. At that time I was usuing a Gertsch RLF-1
> >>>> with an external Moseley 680 chart recorder. The remodulator
> >>>> precludes it from being used as a frequency standard, but in my
> >>>> opinion, so does the fact that WWVB is now phase shifted a bunch.
> >>>>
> >>>> The 8170 uses a coherent detector and that's where the problem
> >>>> lies. While the 8170 still locks to the WWVB carrier, the new BPSK
> >>>> scheme causes the detector to output bad data in spite of the
> >>>> original dips in the carrier still being present. I had always
> >>>> wondered how it was able to pull the data out the noise, but never
> >>>> had a manual until just recently. I had naively assumed that the
> >>>> WWVB new BPSK scheme would not affect the time of day aspect of the
> >>>> 8170. Like I said, I only use it as a clock in my shoppe, and being
> >>>> an old dog I don't easily learn new tricks such as looking in a
> >>>> different direction for one of the other clocks.
> >>>
> >>> I suppose I am stating the obvious, but why not combine Paul
> >>> Swed's Costas loop and this scheme to output a phase locked 60 Khz
> >>> with the right AM modulation ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
> Mass 02493
> >>> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> >>> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted
> pole - in
> >>> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
> either."
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> > --
> > Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston,
> Mass 02493
> > "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> > 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole
> - in
> > celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
> either."
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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