REPLY
One thing that is quite obvious to me.  Back in the late sixties when I
first got into boating we did not have so many conveniences and personal
comfort equipment. Not that I am opposed to comfort and convenience but
how about reading any of the accounts by globe trotting cruisers like Hal
Roth, Eric and Susan Hiscock, in and Larry Pardey, Bob Bebee; not to
forget more recent cruisers like Ben Gray in Idlewild and Steve Dashew. In
recent months I have heard people say in a slightly disparaging tone that
these people are minimalist or that the speaker isn't into camping out or
willing to live in a college dormitory type environment. The point is
these were the pioneers who proved it could be done.

The common denominator these days seems to be a degree of self indulgence
rarely heard of in earlier times. That's fine if you can afford these
things, but lets admit they are not essential. Having clean tanks to store
potable water in is essential.  Having a spa complete with hot and cold
running showers, mistings and water massage is not. For that matter is a
full size bathtub really critical?  Some  cruisers in bygone days  hung up
a black plastic bag to get sun warmed showers. Ok ok  I admit this may be
going beyond the pale and so does blocking up the cockpit foot well to
make a tub. But you know what I mean.

There are critical systems and then there are other systems. It used to be
potable water was delivered to the sink with a foot pump as a conservation
measure. For regular clean-up you used salt water. Nowadays it seems you
are deprived if the RO water maker cannot deliver 600 GPD for multiple
fresh water showers for every crew member each day.

A main cabin stove was once considered the height of luxury and comfort.
Today it has to be a central hot water hydronic heating system, preferably
by Kabola ($14k)  but if you go cheap you get a Webasto or Espar ( only
$6k)
AT one time cruisers used blocks of ice and a refrigerator was a luxury.
Today a fridge is the norm and most also have a freezer. But even that is
not enough. The better equipped cruising boat must also have ice makers
and a wine chiller. And Garbage disposal in the sink drain!  Quite apart
from the question of using these in some jurisdictions, is this really the
way to treat our environment?

Have our collective self indulgence gotten in the way of common sense?
How many cruising people can still navigate with pencil, paper and a stop
watch. How many can actually take a celestial sight and reduce it to a
plot? We take it for granted that instant positioning to an accuracy  of
less than a boat length is the norm. Its very nice but is it essential?
(I'm ducking for cover)
The list is endless. However the list of "absolutely essential"  systems
hasn't changed that much and will not be greatly different, be it a 36
footer or a 76 foot luxury megayacht.

Drinking water, food storage,  propulsion fuel,  cooking facility of some
kind (forget gourmet cooking) and a dry warm bunk to sleep when off watch.
Those are the essentials. Almost everything else becomes comfort systems
of ever increasing complexicity. And the more complex, the harder it is to
maintain, not to mention being expensive.
Hey if you have the money, by all means indulge and enjoy!  But there are
other approaches.

Arild
old timer who started in wooden boats

I suppose there are other approaches as you say... we could still be
putting blocks of ice in our ice boxes at home too. And coal in the
basement to shovel into the fire. The first few cars I owned didn't
have air-conditioning (one didn't have a heater either). People still
live in cabins in the woods without running water or indoor plumbing
and burn wood to stay warm.

No, we don't need any of the newer things, but I'm betting that few
people on the list would want to go back to shoveling coal and hauling
ice blocks for their house, not to mention driving 1950's cars.

I don't see the attraction in doing that in a boat either. A good
liveaboard long-range cruising boat, IMHO, should reflect
approximately the same level of technical sophistication and comfort
of our cars and homes.

Which begs the decision on direction... a small $300K primitive (but
admittedly very reliable) boat, or something between $500K and a
million that has modern equipment and comforts, ala our houses and cars.

Instead of endlessly debating this, I say lets put it to a vote and
then proceed accordingly. Those who want to participate can the do so.

John Marshall
On Dec 10, 2008, at 6:34 PM, 2elnav@netbistro.com wrote:

Bob,

I have read most of Steve D'Antonio's articles on fuel systems and
polishing and have enough respect for his Gearheadedness to believe that if
there were a cheaper, more practical way to do this he would enlighten us
all. We can argue matters of degree of contamination, I suppose. His systems
presume polishing a bad supply taken on in a remote location, or turning
over fuel stored seasonally fast enough to clean between the baffles in the
tanks. The return on investment argument pertains to being cheaper than
paying for tank cleaning and fuel polishing once it ruins your day and
causes both engines to die when supplied by a common sourse. Its more
effective than a second "get home engine" that goes dead and leaves you
powerless. Wooupps, there I good arguing the pros and cons of needing
it.....sorry!

Dave Evans
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Bob Frenier frenier@hughes.net wrote:

Bob Frenier wrote

REPLY
for those boats already equipped with an eqaualizing tube joining the two
tanks; how about cutting into that pipe and diverting it to one of those
"contractor" style refueling pumps they have on a drum in the back of
their pick up trucks.
These pumps can be had in 12VDC 24VDC and 120VAC
The big pipe will allow faster flow and installation of a big filter with
a turbine water separator. The return from the pump can be diverted to
either tank. This allows for taking dirty fuel and depositing in a clean
tank or simply recirculating it.
Admittedly these are not "marine" grade. They are rugged industrial units.
They are ignition proof to meet UL fuel pumping standards.

When I worked for a power utility we used such a system to "polish" the
transformer oil during the once a year downtime maintenance.  We pumped
and filtered 2000 gallons in less than a day shift. Pump and filter
mounted on one of those little hand trucks. The filter canister was 24"
tall and 8" diameter. 100% water separation since even the tiniest bit
would cause the energized transformer to blow up if water was present.
Arild

Good Morning Bob,

Thought I'd wade into this discussion and tell you our experience with
building fuel panels.

Basically we have been building fuel transfer/filtering systems for
years that perform both functions quite nicely, and is relatively
inexpensive to do.

Here's how we do it...

First of all as an example, let's use Mr. Wagner's boat.....it has three
main storage tanks and a large day tank.

We built a fuel board that has an inlet manifold and an outlet manifold.
All of the boats main storage tanks and the day tank feed into the inlet
manifold using 3/4" lines. This allows you to draw from any tank, or the
day tank.

to the fuel pump.  The type of pump will depend on the size of the boat
and the size of the fuel tanks.  Sometimes we also incorporate a "Y"
valve here to enable the use of a manual pump for emergency fuel
transfer.

Anyway, the pump sucks the fuel through the filters and sends it to the
outlet manifold.

The outlet manifold is also connected to all the fuel storage tanks and
the day tank with 3/4 inch lines.

This system basically allows you to draw from any tank, through the
filters and return to any tank using large bore lines.  Typically the
pump we use is around 13 GPM.

The day tank then feeds the main engine and the genset, or wing engine,
through their own single Racors, and all of the fuel returns from the
engines go back to the day tank.

This system seems to work quite well and we have not had any issues from
owners in the last 8 years that they have been in operation.  Actually,
the only thing ever done to modify the system was that one owner
installed a larger pump to transfer fuel more quickly.

Funny thing is that if you read the literature from the filter
manufacturers, it doesn't say that you can get the GPM flow through that
we do, but it does work.

Hope this helps, we have no problem handing out drawings or schematics
of the system if anyone wants to see them......

Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf
Of 2elnav@netbistro.com
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:43 AM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: Re: [PUP] PMM fuel polishing

Bob Frenier wrote

brainstorm

done

REPLY
for those boats already equipped with an eqaualizing tube joining the
two
tanks; how about cutting into that pipe and diverting it to one of those
"contractor" style refueling pumps they have on a drum in the back of
their pick up trucks.
These pumps can be had in 12VDC 24VDC and 120VAC
The big pipe will allow faster flow and installation of a big filter
with
a turbine water separator. The return from the pump can be diverted to
either tank. This allows for taking dirty fuel and depositing in a clean
tank or simply recirculating it.
Admittedly these are not "marine" grade. They are rugged industrial
units.
They are ignition proof to meet UL fuel pumping standards.

When I worked for a power utility we used such a system to "polish" the
transformer oil during the once a year downtime maintenance.  We pumped
and filtered 2000 gallons in less than a day shift. Pump and filter
mounted on one of those little hand trucks. The filter canister was 24"
tall and 8" diameter. 100% water separation since even the tiniest bit
would cause the energized transformer to blow up if water was present.
Arild

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I use a polishing system and it works well but like a lot of
suggestions on this blog it depends on how you intend to use your
boat. If you are passaging far and wide through third world, and some
not so third world, areas it is a safety devise. If however you are
coastal U.S. where you can control supply better and are on a budget
then I'd pass. Traveled many thousands of miles and didn't need it but
then ..... God Bless - Ross 10&2

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Bob Frenier frenier@hughes.net wrote:

I found the best fuel polishers I had on Derreen (Monk 36) were its
generator with a 10:1 return on consumption, and the main with its 2.5:1
r:c. The only time she wasn't polishing fuel was when she was tied to a dock
somewhere.

-- Jim