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TWL: COLREG Rule 33. Sound Equipment

M
mikem@yachtsdelivered.com
Thu, Feb 28, 2002 8:37 PM

In case you have every pondered the seemingly ambiguous paragraph (b) in
rule 33, here is some more to ponder upon.

Rule 33 (b)
"A vessel less than 12 meters in length shall not be obligated to carry the
sound signalling appliances prescribed in (a) of this Rule but if she does
not, she shall be provided with some other means of making an efficient
sound signal."

This rule applies in Inland US as well as on the high seas. But, before all
the rules were consolidated a few years ago, motorboats over 26 feet were
required to carry a bell and motorboats over 16 feet were required to carry
a whistle.

Note that the new rule applies to ALL vessels, sail and otherwise.
And that the Annex to the rules specifies a bell of about 8 inches for
vessels over 12 meters.

Now here is where it starts to get interesting.

The Official  "Federal Requirements" booklet, says:
"Any vessel less than 12 meters MAY carry a whistle or horn...."

Then:
"Therefore, any vessel less than 12 meters in length is REQUIRED" to make
an efficient sound signal to signal your intentions and to signal your
POSITION in periods of reduced visibility".

Below there is a picture of a portable horn and a manual (athletic)whistle.

In case you have forgotten, if you have an accident the courts do the
interpreting, not the USCG.  They will interpret the Rule and in many past
cases the courts have been much more rigid than the CG.

In other words, after an accident a court might interpret Rule 33(b) as
requiring a real bell and a serious whistle, using the catch all Rule 2 (a).

You remember Rule 2 (a), don't you?
"Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or
crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these
Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the
ORDINARY practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

By the way, the CG could change their interpretation of this at any time,
although I suspect it would be with some warning, since it is in their booklet.

There is bit of useful information in all this. If you have a collision,
the legals will be all over you. If you are running a less than 12 meter
vessel, start by taking every precaution you can to not have a collision,
considering the equipment needs as implied above. Keep in mind that any
precaution you could have reasonably taken and failed to take will be held
against you. In this case, if you don't have a real bell or whistle, make
jolly sure you don't collide with anyone. If you don't have the best tools
for the job, take extra precautions to see that other vessels around you
know your position and your intentions as best you can.

Add to your lookouts, use your radar (even if anchored), make noises by
banging pans, keep your searchlight ready at hand, etc.

These are good tactics for any size vessel, short of the required
appliances or with equipment failures.

Oh, I almost forgot. I have never met anyone who had ever used a bell to
signal while anchored in the fog. But, that's just practice, not what is
legally required. Like I said, interesting.

Regards,
Mike

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

In case you have every pondered the seemingly ambiguous paragraph (b) in rule 33, here is some more to ponder upon. Rule 33 (b) "A vessel less than 12 meters in length shall not be obligated to carry the sound signalling appliances prescribed in (a) of this Rule but if she does not, she shall be provided with some other means of making an efficient sound signal." This rule applies in Inland US as well as on the high seas. But, before all the rules were consolidated a few years ago, motorboats over 26 feet were required to carry a bell and motorboats over 16 feet were required to carry a whistle. Note that the new rule applies to ALL vessels, sail and otherwise. And that the Annex to the rules specifies a bell of about 8 inches for vessels over 12 meters. Now here is where it starts to get interesting. The Official "Federal Requirements" booklet, says: "Any vessel less than 12 meters MAY carry a whistle or horn...." Then: "Therefore, any vessel less than 12 meters in length is REQUIRED" to make an efficient sound signal to signal your intentions and to signal your POSITION in periods of reduced visibility". Below there is a picture of a portable horn and a manual (athletic)whistle. In case you have forgotten, if you have an accident the courts do the interpreting, not the USCG. They will interpret the Rule and in many past cases the courts have been much more rigid than the CG. In other words, after an accident a court might interpret Rule 33(b) as requiring a real bell and a serious whistle, using the catch all Rule 2 (a). You remember Rule 2 (a), don't you? "Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ORDINARY practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case. By the way, the CG could change their interpretation of this at any time, although I suspect it would be with some warning, since it is in their booklet. There is bit of useful information in all this. If you have a collision, the legals will be all over you. If you are running a less than 12 meter vessel, start by taking every precaution you can to not have a collision, considering the equipment needs as implied above. Keep in mind that any precaution you could have reasonably taken and failed to take will be held against you. In this case, if you don't have a real bell or whistle, make jolly sure you don't collide with anyone. If you don't have the best tools for the job, take extra precautions to see that other vessels around you know your position and your intentions as best you can. Add to your lookouts, use your radar (even if anchored), make noises by banging pans, keep your searchlight ready at hand, etc. These are good tactics for any size vessel, short of the required appliances or with equipment failures. Oh, I almost forgot. I have never met anyone who had ever used a bell to signal while anchored in the fog. But, that's just practice, not what is legally required. Like I said, interesting. Regards, Mike Capt. Mike Maurice Near Portland Oregon.
R
rossflem@serv.net
Thu, Feb 28, 2002 11:55 PM

On 28 Feb 2002 15:37:41 -0500, "Michael Maurice"
mikem@yachtsdelivered.com wrote:

Oh, I almost forgot. I have never met anyone who had ever used a bell to
signal while anchored in the fog. But, that's just practice, not what is
legally required. Like I said, interesting.

    I can name a whole list of similar violations of the Colregs

that are routine.  It seems that the ordinary practice of seamen is to
be lazy and not comply with the Colregs and given the lack of
enforcement they have little incentive to do so.
I do occasionally see people display a ball when anchored but
never see a boat motorsailing display an inverted cone.  Many tugs in
Puget Sound have their towing day shapes welded to the mast and
display them regardless of their present occupation.  Dive boats
frequently display Alpha or Diver Down flags at the dock and under
weigh.  As the CTSB report stated much of the barge lighting on the
west coast is substandard.


Ross Fleming        ross@renoun.net
Seattle, WA          http://renoun.net

On 28 Feb 2002 15:37:41 -0500, "Michael Maurice" <mikem@yachtsdelivered.com> wrote: >Oh, I almost forgot. I have never met anyone who had ever used a bell to >signal while anchored in the fog. But, that's just practice, not what is >legally required. Like I said, interesting. I can name a whole list of similar violations of the Colregs that are routine. It seems that the ordinary practice of seamen is to be lazy and not comply with the Colregs and given the lack of enforcement they have little incentive to do so. I do occasionally see people display a ball when anchored but never see a boat motorsailing display an inverted cone. Many tugs in Puget Sound have their towing day shapes welded to the mast and display them regardless of their present occupation. Dive boats frequently display Alpha or Diver Down flags at the dock and under weigh. As the CTSB report stated much of the barge lighting on the west coast is substandard. ___________________________________________________ Ross Fleming ross@renoun.net Seattle, WA http://renoun.net
C
capnrich@cnw.com
Fri, Mar 1, 2002 2:37 AM

OK, lets say we have a more than 12 meter boat, with a computer connected to
a humongous 150db at 1/2 mile amp/speaker. The computer runs a program which
feeds the amp with a .wav file (or.mp3) of a bell flawlessly recorded. The
program of course follows the rule for the situation exactly.

But there is no bell aboard.

Does this satisfy ANY of the ColReg? Would it satisfy Rule 2 (a)? ("Nothing
in these Rules shall ....consequences of any neglect to comply with these
Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the
ORDINARY practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.)
Would it satisfy the court?

Remember it is more than 12 Meters.
Richard

OK, lets say we have a more than 12 meter boat, with a computer connected to a humongous 150db at 1/2 mile amp/speaker. The computer runs a program which feeds the amp with a .wav file (or.mp3) of a bell flawlessly recorded. The program of course follows the rule for the situation exactly. But there is no bell aboard. Does this satisfy ANY of the ColReg? Would it satisfy Rule 2 (a)? ("Nothing in these Rules shall ....consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ORDINARY practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.) Would it satisfy the court? Remember it is more than 12 Meters. Richard
M
mikem@yachtsdelivered.com
Fri, Mar 1, 2002 3:14 AM

At 09:37 PM 2/28/02, you wrote:

Does this satisfy ANY of the ColReg? Would it satisfy Rule 2 (a)? ("Nothing
in these Rules shall ....consequences of any neglect to comply with these
Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the
ORDINARY practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.)
Would it satisfy the court?

Allowing that I am not the Judge of the Admiralty Court.

If you can demonstrate that your substitution was equivalent and could not
have contributed or been the cause of the collision. You would not be found
at fault.
This ruling would not be binding on the CG. But,...

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

At 09:37 PM 2/28/02, you wrote: >Does this satisfy ANY of the ColReg? Would it satisfy Rule 2 (a)? ("Nothing >in these Rules shall ....consequences of any neglect to comply with these >Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the >ORDINARY practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.) >Would it satisfy the court? Allowing that I am not the Judge of the Admiralty Court. If you can demonstrate that your substitution was equivalent and could not have contributed or been the cause of the collision. You would not be found at fault. This ruling would not be binding on the CG. But,... Capt. Mike Maurice Near Portland Oregon.
M
mikem@yachtsdelivered.com
Fri, Mar 1, 2002 3:32 AM

At 09:37 PM 2/28/02, you wrote:

OK, lets say we have a more than 12 meter boat, with a computer connected to
a humongous 150db at 1/2 mile amp/speaker. The computer runs a program which
feeds the amp with a .wav file (or.mp3) of a bell flawlessly recorded. The
program of course follows the rule for the situation exactly.

But there is no bell aboard.

Rule 33 (a), last Sentence applies to over 12 meters and says:
"The bell or gong or both may be replaced by other equipment having the
same respective sound characteristics, provided that MANUAL sound of the
prescribed signals shall always be possible.

Analysis:
It would appear that a substitution is allowed. The word "manual", would
appear to be interpreted as your ability to cause the sound by single
actuations, in other words, pressing the button/key whatever yourself.
THe history of this is pretty simple. The CG and the courts would prefer a
bell that is actuated by an automatic timer, but must be capable of manual
operation. The bells that most people have, have to be rung by hand.

Now here comes the sticky part. Notice the words, "shall always be possible".
AN electronic system that could fail might not be interpreted by the CG, on
inspection or the court if it failed to operate and a collision resulted,
to conform to the Rules.

For a vessel less than 12 meters, the use of an electronic system would
seem to be ok, at least for CG inspection purposes.
Over 12 meters, a bell would probably be necessary as a backup.

A vessel of  20 meters, the bell must be 300mm, which is about 12 inches.
Bells like that are not cheap.

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

At 09:37 PM 2/28/02, you wrote: >OK, lets say we have a more than 12 meter boat, with a computer connected to >a humongous 150db at 1/2 mile amp/speaker. The computer runs a program which >feeds the amp with a .wav file (or.mp3) of a bell flawlessly recorded. The >program of course follows the rule for the situation exactly. > >But there is no bell aboard. Rule 33 (a), last Sentence applies to over 12 meters and says: "The bell or gong or both may be replaced by other equipment having the same respective sound characteristics, provided that MANUAL sound of the prescribed signals shall always be possible. Analysis: It would appear that a substitution is allowed. The word "manual", would appear to be interpreted as your ability to cause the sound by single actuations, in other words, pressing the button/key whatever yourself. THe history of this is pretty simple. The CG and the courts would prefer a bell that is actuated by an automatic timer, but must be capable of manual operation. The bells that most people have, have to be rung by hand. Now here comes the sticky part. Notice the words, "shall always be possible". AN electronic system that could fail might not be interpreted by the CG, on inspection or the court if it failed to operate and a collision resulted, to conform to the Rules. For a vessel less than 12 meters, the use of an electronic system would seem to be ok, at least for CG inspection purposes. Over 12 meters, a bell would probably be necessary as a backup. A vessel of 20 meters, the bell must be 300mm, which is about 12 inches. Bells like that are not cheap. Capt. Mike Maurice Near Portland Oregon.
E
elnav@uniserve.com
Fri, Mar 1, 2002 6:53 AM

At 10:32 PM 02/28/2002 -0500, Michael Maurice wrote:

Analysis:
It would appear that a substitution is allowed.
Now here comes the sticky part. Notice the words, "shall always be possible".
AN electronic system that could fail might not be interpreted by the CG, on
inspection or the court if it failed to operate and a collision resulted,
to conform to the Rules.

For a vessel less than 12 meters, the use of an electronic system would
seem to be ok, at least for CG inspection purposes.
Over 12 meters, a bell would probably be necessary as a backup.

A vessel of  20 meters, the bell must be 300mm, which is about 12 inches.
Bells like that are not cheap.

REPLY

Taking that  argument at face value, where does that leave a vesel with an
air horn?
In the event of a power failure the compressor will not produce high
pressure air and thus the horn cannot sound.
What doe the rules say about a manual  non powered  air horn ( whistle)
Don't recall ever seeing one big enough to be useful.

Cheers

Arild

At 10:32 PM 02/28/2002 -0500, Michael Maurice wrote: >Analysis: >It would appear that a substitution is allowed. >Now here comes the sticky part. Notice the words, "shall always be possible". >AN electronic system that could fail might not be interpreted by the CG, on >inspection or the court if it failed to operate and a collision resulted, >to conform to the Rules. > >For a vessel less than 12 meters, the use of an electronic system would >seem to be ok, at least for CG inspection purposes. >Over 12 meters, a bell would probably be necessary as a backup. > >A vessel of 20 meters, the bell must be 300mm, which is about 12 inches. >Bells like that are not cheap. REPLY Taking that argument at face value, where does that leave a vesel with an air horn? In the event of a power failure the compressor will not produce high pressure air and thus the horn cannot sound. What doe the rules say about a manual non powered air horn ( whistle) Don't recall ever seeing one big enough to be useful. Cheers Arild
S
scaramouche@tvo.org
Fri, Mar 1, 2002 6:07 PM

What do the rules say about a manual

,

non powered air horn (whistle)
Don't recall ever seeing one big enough to be useful.

Refer: West Marine Catalogue, year 2002, page 897, Admiral Airhorn $12.95.
Looks like a toy, feels like a toy and sounds like an 18 wheeler right behind you
It's a mouth activated membrane airhorn that delivers 120 db. I have one for about 4 years now. Use nothing else (I have other noise-making toys). This thing hangs outside on a lanyard in the cockpit in all weather. First time I used it, I was
put-putting out of a narrow marina channel. A small boat was drifting in the channel, the occupants having a conversation with someone on shore and quite oblivious to surroundings. Didn't hear my Diesel either. I gave one gentle (120 db) short blast, as
gentle as I could. Thought it was heart attack time. Never saw anyone rowing so fast ever again.
If you get a chance try that "Admiral Airhorn" sometime. You'll be amazed!

George of Scaramouche, Lake Ontario, Canada with no commercial interest in West Marine or any airhorn manufacturer, just love my toys....

elnav@uniserve.com writes: >What do the rules say about a manual , > non powered air horn (whistle) >Don't recall ever seeing one big enough to be useful. Refer: West Marine Catalogue, year 2002, page 897, Admiral Airhorn $12.95. Looks like a toy, feels like a toy and sounds like an 18 wheeler right behind you It's a mouth activated membrane airhorn that delivers 120 db. I have one for about 4 years now. Use nothing else (I have other noise-making toys). This thing hangs outside on a lanyard in the cockpit in all weather. First time I used it, I was put-putting out of a narrow marina channel. A small boat was drifting in the channel, the occupants having a conversation with someone on shore and quite oblivious to surroundings. Didn't hear my Diesel either. I gave one gentle (120 db) short blast, as gentle as I could. Thought it was heart attack time. Never saw anyone rowing so fast ever again. If you get a chance try that "Admiral Airhorn" sometime. You'll be amazed! George of Scaramouche, Lake Ontario, Canada with no commercial interest in West Marine or any airhorn manufacturer, just love my toys....
A
adventuresoul@yahoo.com
Fri, Mar 1, 2002 6:26 PM

My stove is not working these days. I can light the
pilot, and up until I tried to fix it last night, I
could turn the control knob all the way to "broil" and
the flame in the oven would come on for a brief time
then go back to pilot only. Methinks the control unit
up where the knob is attached is somehow messed up. I
tried clenaing all the crud out of the passages.

There is supposeldy some kind of temp adjustment on
there somewhere. I havent figured it out yet. If
anyone wants to save me from going gray, I would love
to hear comments on what could be wrong and how the
temp thing can be adjusted.

Dan

=====


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

My stove is not working these days. I can light the pilot, and up until I tried to fix it last night, I could turn the control knob all the way to "broil" and the flame in the oven would come on for a brief time then go back to pilot only. Methinks the control unit up where the knob is attached is somehow messed up. I tried clenaing all the crud out of the passages. There is supposeldy some kind of temp adjustment on there somewhere. I havent figured it out yet. If anyone wants to save me from going gray, I would love to hear comments on what could be wrong and how the temp thing can be adjusted. Dan ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com
A
alexh@olypen.com
Fri, Mar 1, 2002 9:32 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Geist" scaramouche@tvo.org

Refer: West Marine Catalogue, year 2002, page 897, Admiral Airhorn $12.95.

It's a mouth activated membrane airhorn that delivers 120 db.

Hi George,

We've got one of these and you're absolutely right, They are EARSPLITTING!
When we bought ours it was called the "Admiral Hornblower" and that is how
it's listed on the West Marine web site. Maybe that's a difference between
the US & Canada.

Like you, we keep it on the bridge (somewhat protected) hanging by its
lanyard. It's been there for several years now and still seems as good as
new.

Cheap, simple, bulletproof, and LOUD; this thing would also be an excellent
candidate for inclusion in an abandon ship kit or as a permanent fixture on
the dinghy.

Quietly yours,

Alex

----- Original Message ----- From: "George Geist" <scaramouche@tvo.org> > > Refer: West Marine Catalogue, year 2002, page 897, Admiral Airhorn $12.95. > > It's a mouth activated membrane airhorn that delivers 120 db. Hi George, We've got one of these and you're absolutely right, They are EARSPLITTING! When we bought ours it was called the "Admiral Hornblower" and that is how it's listed on the West Marine web site. Maybe that's a difference between the US & Canada. Like you, we keep it on the bridge (somewhat protected) hanging by its lanyard. It's been there for several years now and still seems as good as new. Cheap, simple, bulletproof, and LOUD; this thing would also be an excellent candidate for inclusion in an abandon ship kit or as a permanent fixture on the dinghy. Quietly yours, Alex
L
love@3dnet.com
Sat, Mar 2, 2002 2:17 AM

Dan Symula wrote:

My stove is not working these days. I can light the
pilot, and up until I tried to fix it last night, I
could turn the control knob all the way to "broil" and
the flame in the oven would come on for a brief time
then go back to pilot only. Methinks the control unit
up where the knob is attached is somehow messed up. I
tried clenaing all the crud out of the passages.

There is supposeldy some kind of temp adjustment on
there somewhere. I havent figured it out yet. If
anyone wants to save me from going gray, I would love
to hear comments on what could be wrong and how the
temp thing can be adjusted.

Dan

=====


Dan ,
Have you checked to see that the propane is actually on.  A funny story
to us is that we cooked an entire Thanksgiving pie on propane fumes.
The burner was lit , but slowly burning and could not be turn up.  I
know it sounds crazy but  it true.  It was not until later that I was
going to change the tank and realized I had the valve closed.

This may not be your situation , but I am in the mood to confess my
stupidity.
ok.............thats it.

Lynn
34' MT Love Affair
Tampa

Dan Symula wrote: > My stove is not working these days. I can light the > pilot, and up until I tried to fix it last night, I > could turn the control knob all the way to "broil" and > the flame in the oven would come on for a brief time > then go back to pilot only. Methinks the control unit > up where the knob is attached is somehow messed up. I > tried clenaing all the crud out of the passages. > > There is supposeldy some kind of temp adjustment on > there somewhere. I havent figured it out yet. If > anyone wants to save me from going gray, I would love > to hear comments on what could be wrong and how the > temp thing can be adjusted. > > Dan > > ===== > ________________________________________ Dan , Have you checked to see that the propane is actually on. A funny story to us is that we cooked an entire Thanksgiving pie on propane fumes. The burner was lit , but slowly burning and could not be turn up. I know it sounds crazy but it true. It was not until later that I was going to change the tank and realized I had the valve closed. This may not be your situation , but I am in the mood to confess my stupidity. ok.............thats it. Lynn 34' MT Love Affair Tampa
S
scaramouche@tvo.org
Sat, Mar 2, 2002 3:52 AM

Cheap, simple, bulletproof, and LOUD; this thing would also be an excellent
candidate for inclusion in an abandon ship kit or as a permanent fixture on
the dinghy.

Yeah, and I think I get a few extra "HornBlowers" as soon as our marine store restocks them.
Would like to keep one in the car, on the bike and the dinghy.
We have a street here near the marina that is owned by Canada Geese. They don't just think they own it - they know and demonstrate so. They just ever so slowly march down or across the pavement and stop all traffic. Really want to have one of these horns
around next time and see if I can scare the bejeesus out of them?

George on the GGW (Great Goose Way)  <smile>

alexh@olypen.com writes: >Cheap, simple, bulletproof, and LOUD; this thing would also be an excellent >candidate for inclusion in an abandon ship kit or as a permanent fixture on >the dinghy. Yeah, and I think I get a few extra "HornBlowers" as soon as our marine store restocks them. Would like to keep one in the car, on the bike and the dinghy. We have a street here near the marina that is owned by Canada Geese. They don't just think they own it - they know and demonstrate so. They just ever so slowly march down or across the pavement and stop all traffic. Really want to have one of these horns around next time and see if I can scare the bejeesus out of them? George on the GGW (Great Goose Way) <smile>
C
capnrich@cnw.com
Sat, Mar 2, 2002 6:07 AM

Speaking of Magic Chef......
If anyone knows how a Magic Chef four burner stove with integral oven above
can be moved out, I would be very pleased to hear.
I have removed four screws from the stainless edge strips for the stove and
this allows the unit to move about a half inch. I cannot figure what else is
holding it.
My objective is to remove it so I can inspect and change the propane
connection at the back. (Part of a complete replacement of the propane
system.)
I do not have an instruction/installation diagram for the unit. It is about
21 years old.
Richard

Speaking of Magic Chef...... If anyone knows how a Magic Chef four burner stove with integral oven above can be moved out, I would be very pleased to hear. I have removed four screws from the stainless edge strips for the stove and this allows the unit to move about a half inch. I cannot figure what else is holding it. My objective is to remove it so I can inspect and change the propane connection at the back. (Part of a complete replacement of the propane system.) I do not have an instruction/installation diagram for the unit. It is about 21 years old. Richard
A
Annieseztoo@email.msn.com
Sat, Mar 2, 2002 7:12 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Symula"

My stove is not working these days. I can light the
pilot, and up until I tried to fix it last night, I
could turn the control knob all the way to "broil" and
the flame in the oven would come on for a brief time
then go back to pilot only. Methinks the control unit
up where the knob is attached is somehow messed up. I
tried clenaing all the crud out of the passages.

<snip>

Dan,
Most likely it is the thermocouple, the little metal whatsis that is
directly in the pilot light flame with the wire attached. It is smaller than
a standard size thermocouple. Try a R/V place, they might have one.
Good luck,
Walt Konieczko
Annie Sez Too    34 Marine Trader
Lanoka Harbor, NJ

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Symula" > > My stove is not working these days. I can light the > pilot, and up until I tried to fix it last night, I > could turn the control knob all the way to "broil" and > the flame in the oven would come on for a brief time > then go back to pilot only. Methinks the control unit > up where the knob is attached is somehow messed up. I > tried clenaing all the crud out of the passages. <snip> Dan, Most likely it is the thermocouple, the little metal whatsis that is directly in the pilot light flame with the wire attached. It is smaller than a standard size thermocouple. Try a R/V place, they might have one. Good luck, Walt Konieczko Annie Sez Too 34 Marine Trader Lanoka Harbor, NJ