Tim,

Thanks for posting that photo. That space age 1976 GOES clock caught our eyes when the paper came out in 2005 (see also pages 11, 12, 13):

https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2013.pdf

There was quite a bit of traffic on time-nuts around 2005 when the GOES satellite time service was turned off (and back on, and off, and on, and finally off for good). That left many of us with piles of 468 MHz GOES receivers, antennae, clocks and led to efforts to re-create the RF signals in-home so that GOES clocks would still work. There was even a commercial G2G (GPS to GOES) translator.

Anyway, I asked around about that one-off bicentennial clock in the photo and neither the authors, NIST, or Smithsonian knows where it ended up. There's tons of information on the GOES satellite system and GOES clocks in the NIST T&F archives:

https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm

Best to search title for GOES, or search author for Hanson. It's a fascinating glimpse into the recent past. Yes, it's sad that GOES (and Omega, and Loran-C) aren't operational anymore, but GPS does such a better job. Plus we now have cable, WiFi, cell phones, the internet, Iridium, etc.

If you wanted to build your own Bicentennial GOES Clock, the design was published, including source code -- for its i4004 (!!) CPU. If you have even one minute to spare, see attached image and click on these two PDF's:

"Satellite Controlled Digital Clock System (patent)"
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1791.pdf

"A Satellite-Controlled Digital Clock (NBS TN-681)"
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/452.pdf

/tvb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Shoppa" tshoppa@gmail.com
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

Tom, thank you for those links!

Yes, my employer used successive generations of GOES satellite clock
receivers that generated IRIG signals piped around the company. Even though
my company started in revenue service in 1976 I don't think we had our
first GOES clock until a few years later.

The IRIG signals were not just used for internal displays. In the 1980's
each passenger station got public facing LED clocks that were standard
NatSemi LED display chips but "force synchronized" at top of each hour and
at midnight via audio tones driving relay contacts that stimulated the set
pushbutton inputs of the NatSemi chips.

When GOES was turned off in 2004, then we switched to NTP controlled IRIG
generator and only in the past month have we removed the last internal IRIG
clock displays. All the passenger facing LED clocks had been removed in the
past decade too.

I am building a miniature reproduction of the bicentennial clock although
it will obviously not be run through GOES or use a 4004. Current prototype
uses a ESP8266 and NTP over WiFi.

Tim N3QE

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:18 AM, Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:

yes I still have a modified 468 that works using some stuff I design back
in 2005. I do power the dc468 up every now and then.
Still works. Though a couple of the panaplex displays are getting a bit
cranky. But completely agree that GPS has seriously spoiled me as it drives
time code clocks.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:18 AM, Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:

Used to work with Wayne on two time transfer via satellite
Great guy

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM  6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com

Physical and US Postal Addresses
5 Shrine Club Drive (Physical)
HC84 452 Stable Ln (RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

Telephones:
Home:                     +1-304-289-6057
US cell                    +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell:           +1-876-456-8898
 

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Van Baak
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 10:19 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

Tim,

Thanks for posting that photo. That space age 1976 GOES clock caught our
eyes when the paper came out in 2005 (see also pages 11, 12, 13):

https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2013.pdf

There was quite a bit of traffic on time-nuts around 2005 when the GOES
satellite time service was turned off (and back on, and off, and on, and
finally off for good). That left many of us with piles of 468 MHz GOES
receivers, antennae, clocks and led to efforts to re-create the RF signals
in-home so that GOES clocks would still work. There was even a commercial
G2G (GPS to GOES) translator.

Anyway, I asked around about that one-off bicentennial clock in the photo
and neither the authors, NIST, or Smithsonian knows where it ended up.
There's tons of information on the GOES satellite system and GOES clocks in
the NIST T&F archives:

https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm

Best to search title for GOES, or search author for Hanson. It's a
fascinating glimpse into the recent past. Yes, it's sad that GOES (and
Omega, and Loran-C) aren't operational anymore, but GPS does such a better
job. Plus we now have cable, WiFi, cell phones, the internet, Iridium, etc.

If you wanted to build your own Bicentennial GOES Clock, the design was
published, including source code -- for its i4004 (!!) CPU. If you have even
one minute to spare, see attached image and click on these two PDF's:

"Satellite Controlled Digital Clock System (patent)"
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1791.pdf

"A Satellite-Controlled Digital Clock (NBS TN-681)"
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/452.pdf

/tvb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Shoppa" tshoppa@gmail.com
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

Bert,

The closes I come is this, burried in the line of Funamental Measurements:
https://www.nist.gov/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/budget-tables

It doesn't get more detailed than that.

The T&F work is relatively small group in the big NIST.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 08/10/2018 08:29 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote:

I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described generally in groups here:

https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and

One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii"

Looks like some of your friends might be looking for work. Not good.

Bob L.

I wonder if anybody will market a GPS-to-WWVB translator?

Dana

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse lajeunesse@mail.com
wrote:

Thank you Magnus I focused on 2017 because of the changes but do not understand because it is a divisionBert

Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org Date: 8/10/18  3:11 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Cc: magnus@rubidium.se Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST
Bert,

The closes I come is this, burried in the line of Funamental Measurements:
https://www.nist.gov/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/budget-tables

It doesn't get more detailed than that.

The T&F work is relatively small group in the big NIST.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 08/10/2018 08:29 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote:

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

I have a very simple circuit for a (microwatt) 60 kHz transmitter that takes a digital input (only needs someone to calculate out the WWVB code from a GPS clock).  The biggest problem I find with my WWVB clocks is getting a good signal, which is highly depend on location in the house and orientation of the device's antenna.  So I have one WWVB receiver in a good place and key my little transmitter as a "translator" elsewhere in the house.

Andy Backus

From: time-nuts time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com on behalf of Dana Whitlow k8yumdoober@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 1:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST

I wonder if anybody will market a GPS-to-WWVB translator?

Dana

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse lajeunesse@mail.com
wrote:

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

My favorite RFI (Request for Information):
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=4f5c8b176af03d89abb1a318624c944b&tab=core&_cview=0

The public comments should be around someplace.

Larry Sampas

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 5:05 PM, Andy Backus ANDREWBACKUS@msn.com wrote:

I found the public comments from Microsemi
https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2017/05/09/NIST-RFI-Internet-Time-Service-response.pdf,
but couldn't locate my response.  At one time the full set of RFI public
responses was on-line.

The NIST 60 kHz time service is widely used by inexpensive clocks, but I
find little use by public NTP servers.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Larry Sampas larry@larrysampas.com wrote:

This one almost slipped by me.
I see NIST seems to have taken down the link or details.
So they want to shut down the services. I suppose that makes some sense.
But would like to see what that means. LF and HF...
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:56 PM, Steven Sommars stevesommarsntp@gmail.com
wrote:

You can find lots of these projects on the web: in the time-nuts archives, eevblog, hackaday, or sometimes completed multi-band kits (WWVB / DCF77 / JJY) on eBay.

Search for a couple of words like signal wwvb simulator generator translator emulator transmitter

An example of a well engineered product (no longer available?) is: https://unusualelectronics.co.uk/products/chronvertor/

An example of a quick hack (open source) is: https://hackaday.com/2014/03/22/build-your-own-radio-clock-transmitter/

There are dozens more.

/tvb

To answer Dana's question, there are many projects on the web (as Tom has pointed out), but very few, think, will answer the question in total.

For the DYI person, I think a GPS module from Adafruit, an Arduino, and a down-and-dirty little transmitter like mine or the one in Tom's second link will do the trick.  Writing the software will be fun (beginning with simply counting the PPS from the GPS).

acb

You can find lots of these projects on the web: in the time-nuts archives, eevblog, hackaday, or sometimes completed multi-band kits (WWVB / DCF77 / JJY) on eBay.

Search for a couple of words like signal wwvb simulator generator translator emulator transmitter

An example of a well engineered product (no longer available?) is: https://unusualelectronics.co.uk/products/chronvertor/

An example of a quick hack (open source) is: https://hackaday.com/2014/03/22/build-your-own-radio-clock-transmitter/

There are dozens more.

/tvb

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and follow the instructions there.

On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:

I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH

Hi

One would guess that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….

Bob

With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals, and so on, is great stuff.
On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

One would guess that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….

Bob

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and follow the instructions there.

I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like
"shutting down
the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the
whole
enchilada.

For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
battery-
backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation
is to
run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to
take my watch
off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
shutdown comes
to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at
least
plans for building one.

Dana

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

And with dependence on GPS we have created a serious vulnerability as too many critical pieces of infrastructure are dependent on a SINGLE precision timing and positioning system.

I can use a sextant and have a copy of Bowditch.    But they only work on clear days and nights.

if GPS goes down for any reason.  Whats the backup solution?

On Aug 10, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Lester Veenstra m0ycm@veenstras.com wrote:

Used to work with Wayne on two time transfer via satellite
Great guy

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM  6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com

Physical and US Postal Addresses
5 Shrine Club Drive (Physical)
HC84 452 Stable Ln (RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

Telephones:
Home:                    +1-304-289-6057
US cell                    +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell:          +1-876-456-8898

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Van Baak
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 10:19 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

Tim,

Thanks for posting that photo. That space age 1976 GOES clock caught our
eyes when the paper came out in 2005 (see also pages 11, 12, 13):

https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2013.pdf

There was quite a bit of traffic on time-nuts around 2005 when the GOES
satellite time service was turned off (and back on, and off, and on, and
finally off for good). That left many of us with piles of 468 MHz GOES
receivers, antennae, clocks and led to efforts to re-create the RF signals
in-home so that GOES clocks would still work. There was even a commercial
G2G (GPS to GOES) translator.

Anyway, I asked around about that one-off bicentennial clock in the photo
and neither the authors, NIST, or Smithsonian knows where it ended up.
There's tons of information on the GOES satellite system and GOES clocks in
the NIST T&F archives:

https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm

Best to search title for GOES, or search author for Hanson. It's a
fascinating glimpse into the recent past. Yes, it's sad that GOES (and
Omega, and Loran-C) aren't operational anymore, but GPS does such a better
job. Plus we now have cable, WiFi, cell phones, the internet, Iridium, etc.

If you wanted to build your own Bicentennial GOES Clock, the design was
published, including source code -- for its i4004 (!!) CPU. If you have even
one minute to spare, see attached image and click on these two PDF's:

"Satellite Controlled Digital Clock System (patent)"
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1791.pdf

"A Satellite-Controlled Digital Clock (NBS TN-681)"
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/452.pdf

/tvb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Shoppa" tshoppa@gmail.com
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 7:29 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi

If GPS goes down, you then have Glonass. If Glonass goes down, you have Galileo. If all of those go down and you are in the
right region, the Chinese and Japanese both have systems you could use.

In terms of system failure, there’s a lot of redundancy out there ….. Yes, you would have to own gear that works with all
those systems. You might also go with multi-band (quad band maybe) gear to eliminate various other issues.

Widely deployed electronic navigation isn’t all that old. People got along for a really long time without it ….. That includes a whole
bunch of folks who had no clue how a sextant works.

Bob

I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.

Dana, I’m puzzled by what you wrote.  I have 8 clocks and 2 wristwatches that sync with WWVB.  When band conditions are poor they miss a sync for a day but still they are good quartz clocks so the time readout is still OK.  When the band conditions are good again they sync up once per day usually around 2am (according to the manual for my wristwatch).  I can easily tell the sync status on all but 4 of my clocks and they sync successfully about 90% of the overnight times.  My wristwatches are Citizen models that charge by solar which is nice since I have a perfectly in sync watch that never needs to be opened to change a battery.

I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter.  I think that would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as Florida, Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe.  I’ve found the real limitation to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home.  For instance if I have a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB clocks will not sync successfully.

I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is.  :-)

Best Wishes,
Craig
KI7CRA

Like all of you I have a few wwvb clocks that work pretty well here in
Boston.
Certainly have written enough wwvb stuff and created various wwvb projects
that I will have to get back into it again.
I did look at the cron-verter. Have to say it has a lot of nice features.
Unfortunately it hasn't been available for a year or so. (Getting lazy)
The good news is the AM modulation of wwb is very easy to create.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Dana Whitlow k8yumdoober@gmail.com
wrote:

Just a word:  When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most
valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc.
This is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .
Don

On 2018-08-12 12:20, paul swed wrote:

--
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304

all you need for a once a day noon fix is a level surface, a stick, and
some pebbles.
Don

On 2018-08-12 08:29, Scott McGrath wrote:

--
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304

Yep, just like "government shutdowns" where all non-essential people stay home.
(I always wondered why, it they are non-essential they are on the payroll in the
first place, but what do I know, I'm just a taxpayer.)  But what gets shut down
first are things like National Parks, which have immediate effect on lots of people.

What are the effects on the budget of running WWV/WWVB?  The electric bill I
would guess.  When John Q. Public's "atomic clock" stops working, they'll find a
way to pay the bill.

Wes

On 8/12/2018 11:58 AM, djl wrote:

Well if the old LF and HF signals go away I am on for yet another wwvb
project and wwv. What the heck.
Creating a AM wwvb is really pretty easy and in fact I have done that.
Can't remember what code that was.
Pretty sure it was basic on SXb2. But the good news is the old BPSK code
isn't needed so it really becomes easy.
The BPSK coder was seriously complicated. (That was the cheatin dePSKr)
So it would be GPS to WWVB code. Have to think about the DST thing. Thats
always a bit messy.

Lastly while I am at it there would be a 5 and 10 MHz wwv simulator at
least ticks and minute tone. Looked at voice and thats a bit of a mess.
They seem to just say numbers. Not sure there are modules that say time
from my bit of research.
Of course have to be careful with transmission levels.... Looks like its
time yo look up fcc part 97.

Things to ponder.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Wes wes@triconet.org wrote:

I hope that defunding is just a ploy and things will remain on the air.  I
am concerned this is starting to sound like 2010 when DHS/USCG took eLoran
off the air in the states.  This was one of the few things that totally
dismayed me about the Obama administration.

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:59 PM djl djl@montana.com wrote:

--
Joe Dempster
+1 908 413 2889 (mobile)

Joe Dempster
+1 908 413 2889 (m)

WWV HF transmissions include a 100 Hz subcarrier that gives the info in cw format.

For generating WWVB code I would suggest simply counting seconds to yield days -- the WWVB code takes the day number in the year.  Leap year is easy.  Just look up the DST start and stop.

acb

From: time-nuts time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com on behalf of paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 1:47 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST

Well if the old LF and HF signals go away I am on for yet another wwvb
project and wwv. What the heck.
Creating a AM wwvb is really pretty easy and in fact I have done that.
Can't remember what code that was.
Pretty sure it was basic on SXb2. But the good news is the old BPSK code
isn't needed so it really becomes easy.
The BPSK coder was seriously complicated. (That was the cheatin dePSKr)
So it would be GPS to WWVB code. Have to think about the DST thing. Thats
always a bit messy.

Lastly while I am at it there would be a 5 and 10 MHz wwv simulator at
least ticks and minute tone. Looked at voice and thats a bit of a mess.
They seem to just say numbers. Not sure there are modules that say time
from my bit of research.
Of course have to be careful with transmission levels.... Looks like its
time yo look up fcc part 97.

Things to ponder.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Wes wes@triconet.org wrote:

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

How exactly does one get submillisecond time of day precision with a
sextant?
(even if sticks and pebbles are thrown into the mix)
I'd say more like ~1 sec precision on a really fine day, it the sextant is
wielded by
a skilled and practiced operator who has apriori knowledge of his location.

And what about standard frequency dissemination?

I'm also upset about the notion of time distribution and transfer by
internet.  Now
there's a fine example of a system that could be brought down by a single
competent
hacker!

And all it takes is one really good solar flare to bring down GPS (and
Glonass and
the others) semipermanently, if the reports I read are true.

I argue that instead of shutting down distribution avenues, NIST should be
making
additional ones available.

A lot has been said lately about how rapidly our technology is exploding.
But think
about how much of that is critically dependent on precision time transfer
over the
planet, and how much longer it would take mankind to recover from (insert
your favorite
disaster here) without good time and frequency transfer still up and
working.

Dana

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:06 PM, djl djl@montana.com wrote:

Hi

Well…. there’s also the solar flare that vaporizes the planet earth :)

A flare big enough to take out all the sat systems would disrupt a lot more than just navigation.
It also probably is big enough to take out HF radio gear as well. It takes a lot of energy to
permanently take out a sat system. Hour or two disruptions … sure … total destruction, that’s
getting into crazy levels.

Bob

A good sextant with a good operator can measure apparent altitude to 0.1 minutes of arc.  The fastest apparent motion of objects in the sky due to rotation of the earth is 0.25 minutes of arc per second.  So the best a sextant can do with time (assuming accurate astronomical tables and an exact knowledge of position) is 0.4 seconds of time.

acb

From: time-nuts time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com on behalf of Dana Whitlow k8yumdoober@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 4:29 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

How exactly does one get submillisecond time of day precision with a
sextant?
(even if sticks and pebbles are thrown into the mix)
I'd say more like ~1 sec precision on a really fine day, it the sextant is
wielded by
a skilled and practiced operator who has apriori knowledge of his location.

And what about standard frequency dissemination?

I'm also upset about the notion of time distribution and transfer by
internet.  Now
there's a fine example of a system that could be brought down by a single
competent
hacker!

And all it takes is one really good solar flare to bring down GPS (and
Glonass and
the others) semipermanently, if the reports I read are true.

I argue that instead of shutting down distribution avenues, NIST should be
making
additional ones available.

A lot has been said lately about how rapidly our technology is exploding.
But think
about how much of that is critically dependent on precision time transfer
over the
planet, and how much longer it would take mankind to recover from (insert
your favorite
disaster here) without good time and frequency transfer still up and
working.

Dana

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:06 PM, djl djl@montana.com wrote:

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 07:48:52PM -0400, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Not so clear, big events can cause satellites to fail due to

large charges and voltages on induced on surfaces of the bird that cause
arcs - and also bombardment by energetic particles that can cause logic
states in chips to get tweaked (SEDs) and crash the control electronics
and CPUS and/or confuse vital sensors..  causing the bird to enter modes
that may not be safe for it or recoverable - more than a few satellites
have died of these kinds of things.

Whether ENOUGH GPS/Galileo/Glonnass/Baideu birds would fail to

eliminate them as a functioning constellation is probably somewhat
unlikely... however.

But It is much more likely that orbits would be less accurately

known for a while due to atmospheric heating and increased drag and
maybe also due to disturbances in satellite orientation and power and
thermal status during the event that could both change drag and perhaps
even induce slight impulses if gas jets or similar means were required
to recover the bird and make it stable again.  And the power and
thermal perturbations in emergency mode shutdown configurations might
well impact the on board clock performance and accuracy (even maybe just
from the extra radiation as the magnetopause moved inside the satellite
orbits in an extreme event).

So in addition to the disturbed propagation through the

ionosphere causing degraded performance there well could be significant
errors in ephemerides (basic bird position) that would do so too for a
while.

And recovering a whole constellation of confused, sick and 

dangerously misconfigured satellites during a massive world wide event
might be less easy than one might first imagine as the resources
required on the ground would probably be damaged and disabled by other
effects (massive nation wide power grid collapses and the like) and
would certainly be stretched thin by all the urgent problems to get
under control before individual  satellites started to become nearly or
completely unrecoverable.

And there are certainly positive feedback vicious spiral effects

here - such as lack of time and position accuracy caused secondary
problems such as  sync failures in fiber rings and the like that might
take out parts of the Internet and cell systems) and make it much harder
to recover the satellites due to lack of effective communications on the
ground.

I'd expect that decently designed HF and LF radio time and

positioning systems would be VERY much more resistant to lethal damage
by flare EMPs... hard to see how massive earth magnetic events could
kill LF or HF receivers that were even modestly hardened against EMP
simply because otherwise local lightning would be frying them regularly.

And the HF and LF transmitters involved should be pretty self

protecting too... maybe their power supply would be the weak point as
the grid collapsed but this is a problem that can be cheaply handled
with well known and proved diesel generator technology.

--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

There have been a few television documentaries over the years on the Carrington event of 1859.

https://www.history.com/news/a-perfect-solar-superstorm-the-1859-carrington-event

-=Bryan=-

From: time-nuts time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com on behalf of David I. Emery die@dieconsulting.com
Sent: August 12, 2018 6:36 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 07:48:52PM -0400, Bob kb8tq wrote:

    Not so clear, big events can cause satellites to fail due to

large charges and voltages on induced on surfaces of the bird that cause
arcs - and also bombardment by energetic particles that can cause logic
states in chips to get tweaked (SEDs) and crash the control electronics
and CPUS and/or confuse vital sensors..  causing the bird to enter modes
that may not be safe for it or recoverable - more than a few satellites
have died of these kinds of things.

    Whether ENOUGH GPS/Galileo/Glonnass/Baideu birds would fail to

eliminate them as a functioning constellation is probably somewhat
unlikely... however.

    But It is much more likely that orbits would be less accurately

known for a while due to atmospheric heating and increased drag and
maybe also due to disturbances in satellite orientation and power and
thermal status during the event that could both change drag and perhaps
even induce slight impulses if gas jets or similar means were required
to recover the bird and make it stable again.  And the power and
thermal perturbations in emergency mode shutdown configurations might
well impact the on board clock performance and accuracy (even maybe just
from the extra radiation as the magnetopause moved inside the satellite
orbits in an extreme event).

    So in addition to the disturbed propagation through the

ionosphere causing degraded performance there well could be significant
errors in ephemerides (basic bird position) that would do so too for a
while.

    And recovering a whole constellation of confused, sick and

dangerously misconfigured satellites during a massive world wide event
might be less easy than one might first imagine as the resources
required on the ground would probably be damaged and disabled by other
effects (massive nation wide power grid collapses and the like) and
would certainly be stretched thin by all the urgent problems to get
under control before individual  satellites started to become nearly or
completely unrecoverable.

    And there are certainly positive feedback vicious spiral effects

here - such as lack of time and position accuracy caused secondary
problems such as  sync failures in fiber rings and the like that might
take out parts of the Internet and cell systems) and make it much harder
to recover the satellites due to lack of effective communications on the
ground.

    I'd expect that decently designed HF and LF radio time and

positioning systems would be VERY much more resistant to lethal damage
by flare EMPs... hard to see how massive earth magnetic events could
kill LF or HF receivers that were even modestly hardened against EMP
simply because otherwise local lightning would be frying them regularly.

    And the HF and LF transmitters involved should be pretty self

protecting too... maybe their power supply would be the weak point as
the grid collapsed but this is a problem that can be cheaply handled
with well known and proved diesel generator technology.

--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Craig,

The original main reason for WWVB had nothing to do with syncing our
"atomic"
wristwatches and clocks.  It was for keeping local frequency standards
honest, for
which continuous coverage throughout the day and night was desirable (if not
always achievable).  But for that application, a one-shot daily sync was
not really
good enough (for most users).  Stations that used WWVB for serious purposes
used
outdoor electrostatically-shielded loop antennas, usually up on the roof,
to get
enough signal enough of the time.

I'm curious about your fan-related interference.  Fans of the kind used for
"cooling"
living space generally use induction motors, which per se have no mechanism
for
generating RFI.  However, more modern fans sometimes have digital control
systems, which of course do include built-in RFI generators.    I wonder
which variety
you're using.

My Casio watch (module 3405) seems to sync reliably at night if held in a
favorable
orientation through the exercise, but if worn on the wrist at random but
changing
orientation, it often misses.  Fortunately mine seems to drift only about 1
sec per
month when "free running", so I now leave auto-sync turned off and just do
a single
forced sync every few weeks when I decide it's getting "too far off" based
on WWV.

Dana

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick craigk46@comcast.net
wrote:

 This function of disseminating a frequency reference is not mentioned at all in the NIST request for information document, nor in  Microsemi’s response.

I expect most calibration labs have their own 5071As  but that is not quite the same as having a NIST traceability. My Certificate of Calibration from SRS for one of my PRS10 rubidium standards indicates:
«  Stanford Research Systems, Inc. certifies that this instrument has been calibrated to manufacturer specifications and accuracy at an ambient temperature of 23° +/- using instruments and standards which are traceable to the National Institute of Standards and Technology. «
I expect the big labs send their instruments of to Boulder for calibration, but there must be some smaller outfits still phase locking off WWVB. We in Europe have MSF, DCF and TDF for which off air frequency references are /were available and which are probably still being used.
How would this frequency traceability work if WWVB/WWVH pass to a private enterprise?

Don’t worry about how powerful the machines are. Worry about who the machines are giving  power to.

I'm trying hard to think of routine users of WWV / WWVH other than amateur radio operators, time nuts, and the occasional academic / scientific study that uses the transmitters as a signal source.

Perhaps some boaters still use the time signals to set their chronometers, but WWV /WWVH probably wouldn't be my first choice for that application if I had access to GPS.

Perhaps some other users of the radio Spectrum occasionally use the signals as a basic test signal ?

I use the time signals for my amateur radio hobby when I already have an HF receiver and don't want to mess with using GPS as a time source.  I only need accuracy within perhaps a third of a second so manually setting a computer clock while listening to WWV works for me.

For my own interest I'd be curious in knowing of other routine uses of the WWV / WWVH time signals.

Mark S
VE7AFZ

mark@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099