The iLotus M12M is the direct successor of the Motorola M12+ evolution of
the  OnCore series, for what I know. I have designed the first GPSDO for my
company based on the OnCore UT (1999), then just before going into full
production we switched to the M12+ (2000) meanwhile Motorola had become
iLotus (for the GPS stuff).

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Sarah,

I've just reread the old thread from august and i don't quite
get what you are aiming for. From what i gather, you want to have
an ntp startum 1 server for your internal network at home?
How accurate does it have to be? Sub-ms? Sub-us?

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 03:50:41 -0400
Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:

Should be possible. Though i doubt you'll find all together as one kit.
But the whole stuff is pretty much standard.

A lot of the puck antennas come already with a couple of meters cable.
Mostly in the range of 2-10m. You should be able to find an appropriate
one on ebay or other stores.
The iLotus M12M comes with an MMCX antenna connector. This is a nice
and small connector, but IMHO unsuitable for home use. It's not very
sturdy and you can break it easily if you are not carefull. I suggest
that you'd rather look for a timing module with an SMA connector,
which is much less fragile (although still something you have to be
carefull with) and more standard (antennas and cable with SMA connectors
are very common for GPS).

You know that an USB Serial converter introduces an unpredicatable
non-white jitter in the ms range? An ntp server with good internet
connection gives you better results than that.

Guessing from the name, i'd say the iLotus M12M uses a variant of the
Motorola M12 Oncore timing receiver.

HTH

		Attila Kinali

--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:50 AM, Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:

Just over $100.  the M12M is about $60 new.  If you call up and say
you are a hobbyist and heard about it on this list.
Buy a timing antenna on eBay for about $30
You can use 30 meters of cable TV wire and some N to F adaptors
You can power it all with a salvaged power cube.
Then you'd need a mast for the antenna made with plumbing parts and
misc hardware and a box for the electronics.  Maybe $130 if you were
carful

But if you are really worried about cost buy an older Oncore.  The new
m12m is only slightly better then the older m12+T that sells on eBay
for $35.  The two are nearly identical.  (See item # 290656401551)
then see item # 270881742870 for an antenna  You'd be just under $100
if you went this route.

--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:50 AM, Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:

((...snip...)) -- my post was long. Sorry hehe.

(quote block from) Chris Albertson

Hmm ok wow. That all sounds pretty good. I'm confused about one or two
things though...

1. I'm planning to mount the antenna indoors. Will be pressed up into
   the skylight here in the living room / den with cable management...

Pretty sure the landlord doesn't want an antenna mast mounted on the
roof, yard, etc...

Would be scared to attempt this anyway because I don't know how to set
up a proper array of lightning rods / grounding / surge protection / etc.

2. salvaged power "cube" ... I don't really know what that means:
   typically I don't go mucking around with random electronics (salvaged
   or otherwise) unless it's something I understand and have experience
   with. Are there ready-made power supplies known to work with M12-type
   timing GPSes? The most wiring I really want to do is get a tool with
   which I can crimp some antenna cable and/or install adapters on the ends.

((Digitally Signed))
Sarah White
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On 10/17/2012 4:18 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:> Hi Sarah,

((...snip...))

Oh, but I'm already managing sub-ms just fine.

I have an NTP server in my living room getting time from a stratum 2
NTP server I'm operating in a local-ish datacenter...

THAT stratum 2 server currently prefers getting time from a local
stratum 1 operated by hurricane electric / CDMA refclock... so
basically, I'd just be ever-so-tickled if my stratum 2 server was
marking the time from my living room as being "acceptable / best
source" even if only rarely.

I'm probably "nuts" as far as timekeeping goes. There's not really any
other reason I'm on this list. Some day I might be good enough with
all this tech, such that I could act as a consultant on the subject...
For now though, I'm enjoying the learning experience(s)

Thanks everyone :)

((Digitally Signed))
Sarah White
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On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:
...

Indoor antennas can work.  It depands on the details.  Hopefully the
skylight looks to the south.  BTW that thin sheet of plastic that
makes the skylight window will not protect from lightening.  It makes
little difference.

It means those "plug-in" power suply boxes that plug into a wall
outlet and have a coaxial power plug.  They are use to power cell
phone charges and notebook computers and you name it.  Most people
have many of those around the hose.  The output voltage will be
printed in the cube

With the M12M it is not quite plug and play.  For one thing it is a 3
volt, not a 5 volt device although it does have a 5 volt pass thought
for using a 5V antenna

You will have to read the user manual, down load that first.  The
older UT type GPS is the same thing as the m12m but uses 5V and sells
for about 1/2 the price. but still it is NOT a comsummer level box.
It is a part that requires some knowlege to asemble into  usable
product.
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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On 10/17/2012 6:04 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
((...snip...)) -- 1

((...snip...)) -- 2

(part 1)

This is a glass skylight window, not plastic.

Also, the skylight window in question is not the highest point on the
roof, there is a domed metal cover on an exhaust fan vent thingy...
Regardless though, landlord won't allow things to go on roof or in the
yard so I'm stuck with using the window.

... Basically, this way I won't have to consider any waterproofing for
the antenna, and just hope that if lightning strikes it goes for the
exhaust vent dome thingy instead... Ah well whatever. My plan remains
unchanged in this regard --- it is going to be in one of the
south-facing (roof is angled) skylight windows.

(part 2)

For phone chargers... Not lately, no. Both my phone, and the person
I'm living with Have a modern phone. For the past couple years, phone
device manufacturers give you a very tiny USB-type AC adapter which
you use to plug a USB micro micro directly into the wall. They're cute :)

As for notebook computers, both mine and that of the person I live
with have the modern style (and they output 12 and 19.5 volt respectively)

Basically I'd have to go looking at the local thrift store to find
older hardware as you described... But...

I don't exactly want to sit around tinkering with my soldering iron (a
friend gave it to me. her roommate left a bunch of crap and it
would've just gone to the landfill otherwise) and/or a multimeter of
some sort (which I don't own)

...Also, most weather conditions, and/or for most hours of the day
(subject to position for the GPS constellation period(s) or whatever)
I'm still able to get a good signal and clear view for at least 5-6
distinct PRNs out of this south-ish (angled roof) skylight window.

And that's with a $6 navigation GPS thingy (USB puck-type NMEA-only)

That's navigation... Timing mode only needs "1 satellite lock" after
all, and I suspect I will at minimum be able to get needed "1
satellite lock" with nearly any active GPS antenna.

((digitally signed))
Sarah White
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On 10/17/12 4:48 PM, Sarah White wrote:

Skylights work fairly well.. just stick the antenna on the bottom of the
window and hope for the best.  If you have a handheld GPS (or phone
which does GPS), you can hold it up there and see if it works.

The worst case is that they've put some sort of metallic film on the
window to reduce thermal losses.. There are ways to fix that, but
non-trivial.

Ah, but this is Time-Nuts.. are you sure you don't need 1E-13
performance?  You may not think you do today, but inevitably, the
horrible uncertainty in your time stamps will gnaw at your innermost
soul, and pretty soon, you'll be building choke rings, wrapping your $6
receiver in an oven, cobbling together some weird combination of surplus
parts.

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:

Same thing.  Lighten does not care to much about a sheet of glass,
after all it has already arced across 20,000 feet of air.  It is
really unpredictable.  Even it it hits the furnace vent on the root
your TV gets fried.  I would not worry to much unless you live in
Florida or some place like that.

Back to GPS.  The antenna a good chunk of the sky.  The GPS satellites
don't fly over the poles so there is no use looking there, nothing for
the antenna to see but if you look south the sats fly clear down tho
the horizon.  So South facing windows are better then north facing if
you have a choice.

If you are 100% indoors you don't need one of those pointy antennas
and can use a cheaper patch type.  You can duct tape it to the window

Plug and play timing GPS system are not so cheap, even on eBay.  But
they are made by HP and others.  By plug and play I mean it comes in a
metal box with connectors for all the inputs and outputs

See eBay # 280921147498

the iLotus m12m is a great GPS and cost only $60 new but read the user
manual at this page and you see it is not "plug and play
http://www.ilotus.com.sg/m12m_timing_oncore

But yu are in luck, iLotus does sell an M12M evaluation kit that is ready to use
http://www.ilotus.com.sg/m12m_uart_evaluation_kit
but the price is higher.

The "Thunder bolt is a very populate GPS.  It is still one of the
best.  Lots of people on eBy sell them as a "kit" withj all the parts
you need. pretty much conect the wires and turn it on.
See eBay # 180446371977 the seller has already modified an old
computer notebook power supply so you don't have to find the right one
and change the connector.

About those power cubes.  If you don't have a box full of old ones,
yes you have to buy one but they cost less than $10 new.  I almost
always have to cut off the connector because it is the "wrong" type.
If you can't do that buy t "plug and play" GPS system.

I did most of the work myself, got an older UT type Oncore for $15,
had a box of power cubes and so on.  It cost less that way but I keep
an electronics bench set up with solder stationm a bunch of meters a
scope two shelves of test equipment and I studied electrical enginerin
and computer science in school (decades ago)  So for me a $60 budget
is reasonable, for you $300 to $400 is reasonable.

--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

Sarah, Jim,

On 10/18/2012 02:26 AM, Jim Lux wrote:

Hear! Hear!

As time-nuts, we try to get the best possible performance for least
possible cost. Then again, we oldies should recall that new-comers still
need to get started. We should give them advice that gives them a good
start while not spending too much money on a solution which isn't
sufficiently expandable into the future.

We should have a wiki for FAQ and references.

Cheers,
Magnus

Dear Magnus,

I hope you don't mind me jumping into the thread. Your last comment sparked my enthusiasm and will to help. If you need me as a rookie to contribute or coordinate with newcomers to Time Nuts, I will be more than glad to do it. Also if you need help with the Wiki I could offer time to do it. I have some resources that could be used for these matters. Thanks.

Regards,

Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV

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On Oct 21, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 18:02:40 +0200
Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

Yes, definitly. Often it's very simple information one is lacking.
Like: where to find such information :-)

KO4BB's site is definitly worth a look, even if a bit overwhelming
and not clearly structured (especially if you dont know what you are
looking for).

A list of OCXOs and their benefits/drawbacks, like the list Luciano
(aka timeok) send a couple of weeks back is also a great help.

Or Vig's presentation on quarz resonators (if you haven't read it, you should!)

Then a list of sources for time/frequency refrences and how to aquire
them (like GPS -> GPSDO, DCF77/WWVB receivers etc). But i don't know
of any document that does this...

And something that glues all of the above together...

The rest is just a mater of asking and finding the right documenation.

:-)

		Attila Kinali

--
There is no secret ingredient
-- Po, Kung Fu Panda

Dear Attila,

We are a good example of a couple of souls enthusiastically raising our hands for what Magnus suggested.

Magnus, I think more people will welcome your idea of a centralized T&F information system.

Anybody else raising your hand?

Regards,

Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV

Información anexa:

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NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.

On Oct 21, 2012, at 11:39 AM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:

On 10/21/2012 12:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

I would better appreciate that list of information if I confidently /
specifically knew how to access any of it. Any chance you have links to
the helpful information-type things you just listed? I feel almost
insulted by my ignorance right about now :(

...Like maybe I'm missing something from earlier in the mailing list. I
was following the thread with // Followup (still want a GPS-type NTP
refclock) // and now I don't know where this thread actually started. Am
I responding to the original post?

Still waking up / confused by first post I'm responding to today
--Sarah

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 12:48:43 -0400
Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:

Blub... sorry, i didn't think far enough.

KO4BB site can be found at http://ko4bb.com/ it contains lots of information
and tons of manuals related to time-nuts, specifically http://ko4bb.com/Timing/
and http://ko4bb.com/manuals/
The later contains also an asortment of other things than manuals.
Eg Vig's Tutorial:
http://ko4bb.com/manuals/index.php?dir=05%29_GPS_Timing/John_Vig_Tutorials_on_Crystal_Oscillators
(The different revisions have slightly different contents, the pdfs are
created from the ppts using libreoffice)

The OCXO comparison table can be found in the mailinglist archives:
http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-October/070958.html

For the rest... Well, i don't know where to find that stuff in
a beginner friendly way. I've read a ton of papers, proceedings
and books.. not to mention mails on this list to get even a small
understanding on what is going on in time-nuts land.

		Attila Kinali

--
There is no secret ingredient
-- Po, Kung Fu Panda

On 10/21/2012 06:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

Yes. There is a gazzilion of material out there, but it is not very well
organized and also, people spend a lot of time on one or more
specialization and as things progresses it can be a bad thing to use too
old material. Still, also getting this old material is also very good,
if put into a fuller context.

Many of the sites has the style of one person writing down his stuff.
Doing it the wiki style (mediawiki recommended) has the benefit that
topics can be touched on and then have the material develop as more
knowledge comes in from several contributors.

I'm happy to host the wiki myself, and I can set it up on two different
infrastructures.

Having written on Wikipedia (see the Allan Deviation article which I
essentially rewrote from scratch, it's now 18 pages long), I think that
I have the experience to see the benefit of this mutual contribution
mechanism. If we agree that a wiki should be set up and be used, then
let's run with it.

Cheers,
Magnus

Dear Sarah,

On 10/21/2012 06:48 PM, Sarah White wrote:

There have been so much material passing through the list, that reading
up on it would be a large effort. However, the point of a Wiki-based
FAQ/BCP is to speed the learning up for folks like you.

It would be good if list emails/threads could be linked in as references
in articles. This also helps to give credit where credit is due.

Cheers,
Magnus

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:08:25 +0200
Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

That sounds like a good idea.

How about setting up a specific domain for this? Like time-nuts.org..
Uhm.. that's already taken.. by a certain TVB :-)

Tom: Would you mind if we would use [www|wiki].time-nuts.org for this purpose?

I can also provide DNS servers and other infrastructure if needed.

		Attila Kinali

--
There is no secret ingredient
-- Po, Kung Fu Panda

If Magnus graciously offered to host the Wiki, I could also provide a mirror in my company's infrastructure. The bigger and stronger the Wiki, the better.

Cheers!

Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV

Información anexa:

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Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.

NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.

On Oct 21, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:

On 10/21/2012 1:13 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

(quote) It would be good if list emails/threads could be linked (end)

Works fine for me:

http://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts@febo.com/msg52589.html

^is it considered meta that I quoted a post, then linked to it?

lol

Don't forget that Didier already has a wiki for precision timing:

http://www.ko4bb.com/dokuwiki/doku.php

Best regards,

Charles

On 10/21/2012 07:46 PM, Sarah White wrote:

Hehe. I do know it's linkable, but it is an idea for a concept on the
Wiki.

It was rather a proposal for a good practice when writing articles on
the time-nuts wiki.

Cheers,
Magnus

Yes, I keep a number of time-nuts domains as well as LinkedIn and Twitter id's just in case, and to protect the "brand". So far we haven't decided to exploit them. (You're welcome to invite yourself to the linkedin group if you want a nice photo of a cesium clock along with your other professional affiliations).

Every year or two I send out email soliciting suggestions about the future of the group in general, or the mailing list in particular. There are plans for time-nuts.org, TBA. Send me email off-line.

The support for changing things has not been strong. For the most part the mailing list format has served us extremely well, and google does the rest. It's a good balance between informal and formal, between static and dynamic information. We've considered everything from IRC and twitter to wikis and formal papers.

I should also mention the choice to have John Ackermann host the list (free) along with all the TAPR mailing lists has proven itself again and again. Few entities on the web have been this solid for a decade. A couple of times a year we have trouble with S/N ratio, but those tend to be short lived.

The best rule is that if on average you contribute more A than Q the quality of the mailing list grows. We are fortunate that few people use the list as a replacement for google. Sending out a good question to a thousand people by personal email is a privilege not to be taken for granted. Also someone taking time out of their day to carefully answer a question or submitting the results of hours or days or weeks of bench work also needs to be appreciated and respected. The mailing list has been good to both sides of the equation.

If you have some fresh ideas for the list or the group, feel free to contact me or John off-line.

In particular I'm interested in some group projects: both equipment/construction projects and some automated information exchange projects. I would also be interested in a more mobile-friendly forum as an alternative, or at least a mirror of, the mailing list.

Thanks,
/tvb

Dear Tom,

I am documenting my experiences with the 5065A. Please count on me for that and for sharing it. This week as I mentioned before, my measuring capabilities will grow exponentially. Well at least for me and my sad current situation. I hope soon, you will start seeing graphs and data as a result of my experiments. Fingers crossed. Also, a personal lab domain name has been purchased. Sooner or later, Edgardo's lab web page will be online for all to visit. I hope you will find it interesting. Thank you.

Kind Regards,

Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV

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On Oct 21, 2012, at 6:46 PM, "Tom Van Baak" tvb@LeapSecond.com wrote:

On 10/17/2012 12:31 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

I ended up with a TAPR thunderbolt kit within my price range instead of
an oncore variant, so it looks like I ended up doing everything on-budget:

F-Type RG59 75 Ohm Coaxial Cable (random off-the shelf 50-foot cable
with 75 Ohm impedence to match the specs recommended in tbolt manual)

ARS-0325 (Type F Female to Type N Male Adapter to match cable end to the
antenna)

Symmetricom 58532A antenna (found a gently used one on ebay for cheap)

Thanks everyone for the advice and other help figuring all this out.

Regards,
Sarah White