Re: [PUP] PPM design
Hey Ken
IKm sure you're ready to get SS home, so close but so far away.
What do you think of the Dashew's FPB's? Noticed that he has no wheel, do you think he depends on AP and engines for stearage?
Bo
----- Original Message -----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
To: 'Passagemaking Under Power List' passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sat Nov 01 16:10:23 2008
Subject: Re: [PUP] PPM design
John Marshall said: "To be honest, I'd like to see the price floor raised
closer to two million dollars to make this project fun. At that price, we
can do some cool stuff. At $500K, existing boats like Diesel Ducks and
Nordhavn 46's are probably about as good as you are going to get...."
Grin. Now you understand why I mentioned focusing on something that could
"resale" at an affordable price point. These things get expensive quickly!
Actually, I just did a quick survey to see what used trawlers sell for, and
even used boats cost a bunch of money. As you said, we may want to target
something closer to $2 million.
Used Nordhavn 46: $485,000 to $715,000
Used Nordhavn 47: $905,000 to $1,499,000
Used Selene 43: $499,000 to $725,000
Used Selene 47: $499,000 to $629,000
Used Krogen 48: $775,000 to $1,185,000
Used Nordhavn 55: $1,400,000 to $1,899,000
$500,000 doesn't get you much, even in the used market.
I didn't put much time into this quick survey, and I'm sure there are great
passagemakers out there that I didn't list. Plus, actual sales prices can
vary from online listings (especially in today's market). However, this does
give us a quick sense of what is possible at different price points.
Interestingly, three N46 owners on this list have made the claim that they
already own the "perfect passagemaker", and they may not be fibbing. The N46
is the lowest cost boat on this list, and, yet they rack up a lot of miles!
Nordhavn has been tracking mileage achieved by Nordhavn owners,
http://www.nordhavn.com/distance_pennant, and of the thirty N46s they track,
the average mileage is over 17,000 miles.
I did do a quick check of the pricing on Dashew's FPB 64, since several
people have mentioned it. $2 million.
The more you spend, the more you get. I'm ok with any price point we want to
design for. There are no wrong answers, and even tiny boats can cross oceans
if well designed, and you pick your weather (34 row boats have crossed the
Atlantic...).
-Ken Williams
www.kensblog.com
Sans Souci, N68
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Bo Leonard said: b b&What do you think of the Dashew's FPB's? Noticed that
he has no wheel, do you think he depends on AP and engines for
steerage?...b
Ibve notice that it is becoming more common for trawlers to not have wheels.
Ibve never seen a wheel at a wing station; which is where many of us stand
as we dock the boats, implying they are optional. Personally, I canbt
imagine being without one, but also canbt remember the last time I actually
used mine. On our boat, Roberta demanded we have one, because she wanted a
b Classic boat lookb and not having a steering wheel would look too
modern.
As to the FPB series overall:
I am a fan of the Dashews, and of the FPB series. Were I in the market today,
Ibd strongly consider one of their boats, although, ultimately, Ibd
probably wind up back with a Nordhavn.
Therebs a lot to love about the FPB series:
-
3,400 gallons of fuel -
1,750 gallons of water! -
7,225 mile range at 8.5 knots! -
All Aluminum -
Incredible seaworthiness -
11 knot (claimed) Speed
On the downsideb&
Ibd like to actually be aboard one to see how it feels. My guess is that the
interior and engine room feel cramped. The FPB 64 is not far in price from the
Nordhavn 64, and I suspect the N64 has materially greater square footage in
the interior and in the engine room. The narrow beam (17.5b), canoe shape
and shallow draft of the FPB 64 are the basis of its great stats, but these
come at a price. I would describe the guests quarters as inhospitable. And,
the engine room as too tight to accept twin engines. It isnbt even clear a
larger generator, or second generator would fit. For b get homeb
capability, their literature gives a lot of reasons why it is unnecessary, and
then says b well, you could put up a sail, but itbs unlikely youbd ever
need to.b
I donbt mean to be critical. The FPB series is very cool, and Ibm a fan of
both the concept and the Dashews. Itbs a very intriguing boat and is a bold
step in a new direction.
And.. on a different topic, Chris Samuelson, in a posting earlier today
mentioned the Fisher 46. I got curious what they looked like, and found a few
links:
-
http://tinyurl.com/5j3bmy -
http://www.northshore.co.uk/NSHtml/fisher/fish46.htm -
http://www.whitesyachts.com/Boat_specs/Raingoose-boatspec.htm
(actually a 37 .. But, same style)
-
http://www.northshore.co.uk/NSHtml/F37.htm (also the 37)
As we think about designing b the perfect passagemakerb , the idea of a
motorsailer has a definite appeal. I remember reading Nordhavnbs specs for
their 56b motorsailer (http://www.nordhavn.com/56/overview.php) and
thinking b this is the right boat at the right time.b (inexpensive to
operate, comfortable, great range, etc)
Ken Williams
Sans Souci, N68
To say the Nordhavn motorsailor is ugly is just an understatement. I
don't know how much it costs, but I would image you could buy half a
dozen large used Nauticats or the equivalent for the price.
And, if you read Dashew's cost analysis, he has found operating costs
less per mile in in "unsailboat" than in his sailboats. Replacing
worn rigging and sails is simply not cheap.
Best,
Steve
Ken,
When we talk of the FPB, we have to differentiate Wind Horse (83')
from the production boats at 64 feet.
I did have the privilege to walk through Wind Horse, so I can comment
on a few of your comments.
Interior space in the central Great Room was excellent and fit and
finish very nice. The idea of this boat is to have one huge room where
you navigate, cook, eat, recreate, etc. The forward cabin is for use
only at anchorage and in port, but is along the size of something
you'd see on a 40-something foot boat.
The sea cabin is back by the engine room and consists of two single
berths with seat belts. It's located in the aft for obvious reasons.
Bottom line, the Great Room is terrific, with lots of windows, and
perfect for a couple who plan to cruise continuously. Huge galley in
the center. Lots of handholds. The navigation station is more living
room grade than pilot house, although it has all the gadgets. TCrew
fatigue with only two crew is a big concern on long passages, and
every step was taken to minimize this.
The idea is that you can cook or read a book or do laundry while
keeping an eye on things. They even have aerobatic three-point
harnesses behind some of the couch seats so you can strap in and relax
completely in a really big sea. Its amazing how much energy you burn
when you have to hold on all the time.
The staterooms are just for sleeping and the heads for that business,
and are just large enough to be comfortable.
This is not a floating palace, nor is it a good boat for guests,
especially at sea. Its designed for a couple who spend all their
waking hours in the Great Room. Period.
The engine room is plenty big and, if I recall, tall enough to walk
around. Everything is reachable and open to view.
Not sure how much these comments would change with the smaller 64,
but both are a purpose-built passagemakers with everything optimized
100% for comfort at sea with minimal maintenance.
In port or at an anchorage, its the ugliest boat you'll ever see (let
the crooks go prey on the shiny white yachts). The real beauty is
under the skin and focused on the single purpose of long-distance
passagemaking and living for long periods at anchor in remote areas
with minimal generator run (as in, 5 days without starting the
generator). A boat you can cruise in big seas and still be
comfortable, going fast enough to avoid the worst of the weather. It
accomplishes these tasks brilliantly.
If I wanted to cruise to the ends of the world for years with just my
wife and myself, exploring remote and enticing anchorages, both
equatorial and high-latitudes, rarely visiting a marina, this is what
I'd buy.
Instead, I spend most of my time cruising in the PNW and coastal
cruising down the West Coast with guests on board. Yet I want a boat
that can safely make an occasional 3000 mile passage comfortably in
half decent weather, and survive being at sea when the weather isn't
decent, albeit not very comfortably. A floating house as well, with
all the comforts of home and then some.
A new buyer has to decide what they are REALLY going to do, not what
they just dream about doing. Not everyone enjoys being in the middle
of the big blue sea all the time.
But if you do, the FPB is the ultimate way to go.
John Marshall
Serendipity - Nordhavn 55
Sequim Bay, WA
Therebs a lot to love about the FPB series:
-
3,400 gallons of fuel -
1,750 gallons of water! -
7,225 mile range at 8.5 knots! -
All Aluminum -
Incredible seaworthiness -
11 knot (claimed) Speed
On the downsideb&
Ibd like to actually be aboard one to see how it feels. My guess is
that the
interior and engine room feel cramped. The FPB 64 is not far in
price from the
Nordhavn 64, and I suspect the N64 has materially greater square
footage in
the interior and in the engine room. The narrow beam (17.5b), canoe
shape
and shallow draft of the FPB 64 are the basis of its great stats,
but these
come at a price. I would describe the guests quarters as
inhospitable. And,
the engine room as too tight to accept twin engines. It isnbt even
clear a
larger generator, or second generator would fit. For b get homeb
capability, their literature gives a lot of reasons why it is
unnecessary, and
then says b well, you could put up a sail, but itbs unlikely youbd
ever
need to.b