Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references, with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/071507.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector (“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel), chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-Drop-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites, and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
Hi Gregory,
So, in a nutshell, you are saying I can drop in a Synergy/UBLOX RX with no modifications? According to the link, the SSR-6T+ has reached end of life. Are they making other drop ins or is this the end of their foray into Mototrola replacements?
Both of my Z3805A/Z3801A GPSDOs are HP/Motorolas. Does this drop in apply, or is that only the Symmetricom units?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 7:18 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references, with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/071507.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector (“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel), chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-Drop-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites, and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
uBlox stated the EOL their earlier “6” series modules earlier in 2024;
https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/neolea-6t
Synergy products based on that series are ending, as noted.
April 24, 2024 announcement about LEA6 modules.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/EOL-Ublox-lea6-GPS-receiver.pdf
Synergy stated they are transitioning to current uBlox LEA8 series. This was not unexpected, as uBlox stated intentions earlier (before COVID disruptions).
uBlox GNSS chipsets
https://content.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/GNSS-product_Overview_UBX-14000426.pdf
Gina Aspeytia, at Synergy can be reached via telephone at 858-566-0666, or e-Mail at gina@synergy-gps.com . She and Art can answer your concerns/questions and suggest an appropriate replacement Synergy GNSS solution, as well as data sheets and delivery availability.
—
Symmetricom bought the HP Time/Frequency Reference product line (x380xx);
with just technology / firmware changes based on OEM parts availability.
In my case, I provided inside photos of my late model 58503B (which worked fine, with appropriate SCPI commands) and talked to Art Sepin.
Since my WNRO event was recent, and this late HP/Symmetricom model had not been tested by Synergy, I loaned my 58503B to Art Sepin.
Rick Hambly performed “bench tests” of different Synergy solutions (+M12 replacement using existing Goshay adapter; UT+/VP replacement w/o Goshay adapter).
Results with Synergy SSR were Faster locking to GPS constellation (<5 minutes); WNRO resolution; improved ADEV; and transparent operation with SatStat and Lady Heather. This was reported earlier this year (Feb 2024) on time-nuts.
greg
On Dec 26, 2024, at 10:07 AM, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Gregory,
So, in a nutshell, you are saying I can drop in a Synergy/UBLOX RX with no modifications? According to the link, the SSR-6T+ has reached end of life. Are they making other drop ins or is this the end of their foray into Mototrola replacements?
Both of my Z3805A/Z3801A GPSDOs are HP/Motorolas. Does this drop in apply, or is that only the Symmetricom units?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 7:18 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references, with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/071507.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector (“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel), chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-Drop-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites, and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Hi Greg,
Thanks for this information. I will follow through on this in January. For some reason, the lock of the GPS satellites are really bad with my Motorola receivers. I have two active GPS antennas outside on a pulley that I haul up a tree. With the antennas on the north side of the house, and being at 40deg latitude, I need them way up there to clear my roof, as the walls of the house have foil insulation. The tree is pretty high so the antennas can see underneath. It sounds unorthodox, but it works. Sometimes it takes a day for the GPS receivers to lock up. No rhyme or reason, but turning everything off, including the GPS program, seems to help. Sometimes I can track three or four satellites, but status page has no ALT or AZ information, and the GPSDO just sits there constantly adjusting frequency. Once locked up they behave quite well.
I am wrapping up my testing of the adapter board for the Oscilloquartz/UCT 8663 OCXOs. They seem to work OK, so I will be getting rid of the extra boards soon. My 10811 is near the end of travel with the internal adjustment, so I think I will be replacing it with the 8663 OCXO.
Thanks again,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2024 12:47 PM
To: rbenward@verizon.net; time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@lists.febo.com; Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
uBlox stated the EOL their earlier “6” series modules earlier in 2024; https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/neolea-6t
Synergy products based on that series are ending, as noted.
April 24, 2024 announcement about LEA6 modules.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/EOL-Ublox-lea6-GPS-receiver.pdf
Synergy stated they are transitioning to current uBlox LEA8 series. This was not unexpected, as uBlox stated intentions earlier (before COVID disruptions).
uBlox GNSS chipsets
https://content.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/GNSS-product_Overview_UBX-14000426.pdf
Gina Aspeytia, at Synergy can be reached via telephone at 858-566-0666, or e-Mail at gina@synergy-gps.com . She and Art can answer your concerns/questions and suggest an appropriate replacement Synergy GNSS solution, as well as data sheets and delivery availability.
—
Symmetricom bought the HP Time/Frequency Reference product line (x380xx); with just technology / firmware changes based on OEM parts availability.
In my case, I provided inside photos of my late model 58503B (which worked fine, with appropriate SCPI commands) and talked to Art Sepin.
Since my WNRO event was recent, and this late HP/Symmetricom model had not been tested by Synergy, I loaned my 58503B to Art Sepin.
Rick Hambly performed “bench tests” of different Synergy solutions (+M12 replacement using existing Goshay adapter; UT+/VP replacement w/o Goshay adapter).
Results with Synergy SSR were Faster locking to GPS constellation (<5 minutes); WNRO resolution; improved ADEV; and transparent operation with SatStat and Lady Heather. This was reported earlier this year (Feb 2024) on time-nuts.
greg
On Dec 26, 2024, at 10:07 AM, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Gregory,
So, in a nutshell, you are saying I can drop in a Synergy/UBLOX RX with no modifications? According to the link, the SSR-6T+ has reached end of life. Are they making other drop ins or is this the end of their foray into Mototrola replacements?
Both of my Z3805A/Z3801A GPSDOs are HP/Motorolas. Does this drop in apply, or is that only the Symmetricom units?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 7:18 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references, with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/0715
07.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector (“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel), chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-Dr
op-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites, and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Bob,
Have you tried running only one antenna at a time? Reason why I ask is I recently had an interesting discussion with a ham operator who had (in his work, airport instrument landing systems) encountered a rogue GPS antenna who emitted signals on the GPS frequencies. Apparantly the antenna's amplifier had started to oscillate, turning that antenna into a rather effective GPS jammer. As you can imagine this is a rather slim chance, at the same time a bitch to figure out.
just my $0,02 of course.
Wilko
On 27 Dec 2024, at 20:46, rbenward--- via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Hi Greg,
Thanks for this information. I will follow through on this in January. For some reason, the lock of the GPS satellites are really bad with my Motorola receivers. I have two active GPS antennas outside on a pulley that I haul up a tree. With the antennas on the north side of the house, and being at 40deg latitude, I need them way up there to clear my roof, as the walls of the house have foil insulation. The tree is pretty high so the antennas can see underneath. It sounds unorthodox, but it works. Sometimes it takes a day for the GPS receivers to lock up. No rhyme or reason, but turning everything off, including the GPS program, seems to help. Sometimes I can track three or four satellites, but status page has no ALT or AZ information, and the GPSDO just sits there constantly adjusting frequency. Once locked up they behave quite well.
I am wrapping up my testing of the adapter board for the Oscilloquartz/UCT 8663 OCXOs. They seem to work OK, so I will be getting rid of the extra boards soon. My 10811 is near the end of travel with the internal adjustment, so I think I will be replacing it with the 8663 OCXO.
Thanks again,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2024 12:47 PM
To: rbenward@verizon.net; time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@lists.febo.com; Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
uBlox stated the EOL their earlier “6” series modules earlier in 2024; https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/neolea-6t
Synergy products based on that series are ending, as noted.
April 24, 2024 announcement about LEA6 modules.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/EOL-Ublox-lea6-GPS-receiver.pdf
Synergy stated they are transitioning to current uBlox LEA8 series. This was not unexpected, as uBlox stated intentions earlier (before COVID disruptions).
uBlox GNSS chipsets
https://content.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/GNSS-product_Overview_UBX-14000426.pdf
Gina Aspeytia, at Synergy can be reached via telephone at 858-566-0666, or e-Mail at gina@synergy-gps.com . She and Art can answer your concerns/questions and suggest an appropriate replacement Synergy GNSS solution, as well as data sheets and delivery availability.
—
Symmetricom bought the HP Time/Frequency Reference product line (x380xx); with just technology / firmware changes based on OEM parts availability.
In my case, I provided inside photos of my late model 58503B (which worked fine, with appropriate SCPI commands) and talked to Art Sepin.
Since my WNRO event was recent, and this late HP/Symmetricom model had not been tested by Synergy, I loaned my 58503B to Art Sepin.
Rick Hambly performed “bench tests” of different Synergy solutions (+M12 replacement using existing Goshay adapter; UT+/VP replacement w/o Goshay adapter).
Results with Synergy SSR were Faster locking to GPS constellation (<5 minutes); WNRO resolution; improved ADEV; and transparent operation with SatStat and Lady Heather. This was reported earlier this year (Feb 2024) on time-nuts.
greg
On Dec 26, 2024, at 10:07 AM, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Gregory,
So, in a nutshell, you are saying I can drop in a Synergy/UBLOX RX with no modifications? According to the link, the SSR-6T+ has reached end of life. Are they making other drop ins or is this the end of their foray into Mototrola replacements?
Both of my Z3805A/Z3801A GPSDOs are HP/Motorolas. Does this drop in apply, or is that only the Symmetricom units?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 7:18 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references, with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/0715
07.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector (“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel), chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-Dr
op-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites, and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Actually I think I had that problem. My R&S frequency standard antenna was maybe a foot and half from a gps antenna for KiwiSDR receivers. The R&S antenna downconverts to 40 MHz to send to the receiver. Most of the time the R&S wouldn’t lock, I thought it was trees in the way. As soon as I stopped using the other antenna, it locked and has been locked for months.
Steve KD2OM
Sent from my iPhone.
On Dec 27, 2024, at 17:51, Wilko Bulte via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Bob,
Have you tried running only one antenna at a time? Reason why I ask is I recently had an interesting discussion with a ham operator who had (in his work, airport instrument landing systems) encountered a rogue GPS antenna who emitted signals on the GPS frequencies. Apparantly the antenna's amplifier had started to oscillate, turning that antenna into a rather effective GPS jammer. As you can imagine this is a rather slim chance, at the same time a bitch to figure out.
just my $0,02 of course.
Wilko
On 27 Dec 2024, at 20:46, rbenward--- via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Hi Greg,
Thanks for this information. I will follow through on this in January. For some reason, the lock of the GPS satellites are really bad with my Motorola receivers. I have two active GPS antennas outside on a pulley that I haul up a tree. With the antennas on the north side of the house, and being at 40deg latitude, I need them way up there to clear my roof, as the walls of the house have foil insulation. The tree is pretty high so the antennas can see underneath. It sounds unorthodox, but it works. Sometimes it takes a day for the GPS receivers to lock up. No rhyme or reason, but turning everything off, including the GPS program, seems to help. Sometimes I can track three or four satellites, but status page has no ALT or AZ information, and the GPSDO just sits there constantly adjusting frequency. Once locked up they behave quite well.
I am wrapping up my testing of the adapter board for the Oscilloquartz/UCT 8663 OCXOs. They seem to work OK, so I will be getting rid of the extra boards soon. My 10811 is near the end of travel with the internal adjustment, so I think I will be replacing it with the 8663 OCXO.
Thanks again,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2024 12:47 PM
To: rbenward@verizon.net; time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@lists.febo.com; Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
uBlox stated the EOL their earlier “6” series modules earlier in 2024; https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/neolea-6t
Synergy products based on that series are ending, as noted.
April 24, 2024 announcement about LEA6 modules.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/EOL-Ublox-lea6-GPS-receiver.pdf
Synergy stated they are transitioning to current uBlox LEA8 series. This was not unexpected, as uBlox stated intentions earlier (before COVID disruptions).
uBlox GNSS chipsets
https://content.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/GNSS-product_Overview_UBX-14000426.pdf
Gina Aspeytia, at Synergy can be reached via telephone at 858-566-0666, or e-Mail at gina@synergy-gps.com . She and Art can answer your concerns/questions and suggest an appropriate replacement Synergy GNSS solution, as well as data sheets and delivery availability.
—
Symmetricom bought the HP Time/Frequency Reference product line (x380xx); with just technology / firmware changes based on OEM parts availability.
In my case, I provided inside photos of my late model 58503B (which worked fine, with appropriate SCPI commands) and talked to Art Sepin.
Since my WNRO event was recent, and this late HP/Symmetricom model had not been tested by Synergy, I loaned my 58503B to Art Sepin.
Rick Hambly performed “bench tests” of different Synergy solutions (+M12 replacement using existing Goshay adapter; UT+/VP replacement w/o Goshay adapter).
Results with Synergy SSR were Faster locking to GPS constellation (<5 minutes); WNRO resolution; improved ADEV; and transparent operation with SatStat and Lady Heather. This was reported earlier this year (Feb 2024) on time-nuts.
greg
On Dec 26, 2024, at 10:07 AM, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Gregory,
So, in a nutshell, you are saying I can drop in a Synergy/UBLOX RX with no modifications? According to the link, the SSR-6T+ has reached end of life. Are they making other drop ins or is this the end of their foray into Mototrola replacements?
Both of my Z3805A/Z3801A GPSDOs are HP/Motorolas. Does this drop in apply, or is that only the Symmetricom units?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 7:18 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references, with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/0715
07.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector (“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel), chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-Dr
op-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites, and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
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To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
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Hello Wilko,
You can increment your anecdata by one: I recently encountered a GPS
antenna emitting interference that stopped a number of receivers connected
to antennas nearby from tracking. In this case it wasn’t too hard to
identify the culprit since problems started when the bad antenna went up.
The antenna was of the magnetic mount patch type.($2 on Ali Baba - I looked
it up).
Cheers
Michael
On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 at 9:51 am, Wilko Bulte via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Bob,
Have you tried running only one antenna at a time? Reason why I ask is I
recently had an interesting discussion with a ham operator who had (in his
work, airport instrument landing systems) encountered a rogue GPS antenna
who emitted signals on the GPS frequencies. Apparantly the antenna's
amplifier had started to oscillate, turning that antenna into a rather
effective GPS jammer. As you can imagine this is a rather slim chance, at
the same time a bitch to figure out.
just my $0,02 of course.
Wilko
On 27 Dec 2024, at 20:46, rbenward--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Hi Greg,
Thanks for this information. I will follow through on this in January.
For some reason, the lock of the GPS satellites are really bad with my
Motorola receivers. I have two active GPS antennas outside on a pulley
that I haul up a tree. With the antennas on the north side of the house,
and being at 40deg latitude, I need them way up there to clear my roof, as
the walls of the house have foil insulation. The tree is pretty high so
the antennas can see underneath. It sounds unorthodox, but it works.
Sometimes it takes a day for the GPS receivers to lock up. No rhyme or
reason, but turning everything off, including the GPS program, seems to
help. Sometimes I can track three or four satellites, but status page has
no ALT or AZ information, and the GPSDO just sits there constantly
adjusting frequency. Once locked up they behave quite well.
I am wrapping up my testing of the adapter board for the
Oscilloquartz/UCT 8663 OCXOs. They seem to work OK, so I will be getting
rid of the extra boards soon. My 10811 is near the end of travel with the
internal adjustment, so I think I will be replacing it with the 8663 OCXO.
Thanks again,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2024 12:47 PM
To: rbenward@verizon.net; time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com>; Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
uBlox stated the EOL their earlier “6” series modules earlier in 2024;
Synergy products based on that series are ending, as noted.
April 24, 2024 announcement about LEA6 modules.
Synergy stated they are transitioning to current uBlox LEA8 series. This
was not unexpected, as uBlox stated intentions earlier (before COVID
disruptions).
uBlox GNSS chipsets
===
Gina Aspeytia, at Synergy can be reached via telephone at 858-566-0666,
or e-Mail at gina@synergy-gps.com . She and Art can answer your
concerns/questions and suggest an appropriate replacement Synergy GNSS
solution, as well as data sheets and delivery availability.
—
Symmetricom bought the HP Time/Frequency Reference product line
(x380xx); with just technology / firmware changes based on OEM parts
availability.
In my case, I provided inside photos of my late model 58503B (which
worked fine, with appropriate SCPI commands) and talked to Art Sepin.
Since my WNRO event was recent, and this late HP/Symmetricom model had
not been tested by Synergy, I loaned my 58503B to Art Sepin.
Rick Hambly performed “bench tests” of different Synergy solutions (+M12
replacement using existing Goshay adapter; UT+/VP replacement w/o Goshay
adapter).
Results with Synergy SSR were Faster locking to GPS constellation (<5
minutes); WNRO resolution; improved ADEV; and transparent operation with
SatStat and Lady Heather. This was reported earlier this year (Feb 2024)
on time-nuts.
greg
On Dec 26, 2024, at 10:07 AM, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Gregory,
So, in a nutshell, you are saying I can drop in a Synergy/UBLOX RX with
no modifications? According to the link, the SSR-6T+ has reached end of
life. Are they making other drop ins or is this the end of their foray
into Mototrola replacements?
Both of my Z3805A/Z3801A GPSDOs are HP/Motorolas. Does this drop in
apply, or is that only the Symmetricom units?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 7:18 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread
discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references,
with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of
anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/0715
07.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it
internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier
models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V
injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector
(“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter
board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was
discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR
receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with
this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel),
chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these
onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-Dr
op-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking
operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites,
and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver
data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for
upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
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To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Hi Wilko, Michael, Steve,& others,
You make a good point. I remember when they prohibited any type of receiver on an airplane. Any receiver can leak their local oscillator frequency out the antenna connector, and that would include GPS. S parameters would indicate how much signal can leak from the antenna amplifier output to the actual antenna and eventually radiate. And of course, as you said, the antenna amplifier can oscillate...
My antennas are separated vertically by about 3ft. I have them on a rope that I haul up a tree. My house has foil-based insulation and since the antennas are on the north side of the house, I need them to clear the roofline. The tree is high enough that the antennas "see" under the tree. I am at 40deg latitude.
Maybe an antenna distribution amplifier/splitter is in order? I will conduct the experiment and off the Trimble GPS while the Z380x boots up.
Thanks all,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Wilko Bulte wkb@xs4all.nl
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2024 5:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com; rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob,
Have you tried running only one antenna at a time? Reason why I ask is I recently had an interesting discussion with a ham operator who had (in his work, airport instrument landing systems) encountered a rogue GPS antenna who emitted signals on the GPS frequencies. Apparantly the antenna's amplifier had started to oscillate, turning that antenna into a rather effective GPS jammer. As you can imagine this is a rather slim chance, at the same time a bitch to figure out.
just my $0,02 of course.
Wilko
On 27 Dec 2024, at 20:46, rbenward--- via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Hi Greg,
Thanks for this information. I will follow through on this in January. For some reason, the lock of the GPS satellites are really bad with my Motorola receivers. I have two active GPS antennas outside on a pulley that I haul up a tree. With the antennas on the north side of the house, and being at 40deg latitude, I need them way up there to clear my roof, as the walls of the house have foil insulation. The tree is pretty high so the antennas can see underneath. It sounds unorthodox, but it works. Sometimes it takes a day for the GPS receivers to lock up. No rhyme or reason, but turning everything off, including the GPS program, seems to help. Sometimes I can track three or four satellites, but status page has no ALT or AZ information, and the GPSDO just sits there constantly adjusting frequency. Once locked up they behave quite well.
I am wrapping up my testing of the adapter board for the Oscilloquartz/UCT 8663 OCXOs. They seem to work OK, so I will be getting rid of the extra boards soon. My 10811 is near the end of travel with the internal adjustment, so I think I will be replacing it with the 8663 OCXO.
Thanks again,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2024 12:47 PM
To: rbenward@verizon.net; time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@lists.febo.com; Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
uBlox stated the EOL their earlier “6” series modules earlier in 2024;
https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/neolea-6t
Synergy products based on that series are ending, as noted.
April 24, 2024 announcement about LEA6 modules.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/EOL-Ublox-lea6-GPS-
receiver.pdf
Synergy stated they are transitioning to current uBlox LEA8 series. This was not unexpected, as uBlox stated intentions earlier (before COVID disruptions).
uBlox GNSS chipsets
https://content.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/GNSS
-product_Overview_UBX-14000426.pdf
Gina Aspeytia, at Synergy can be reached via telephone at 858-566-0666, or e-Mail at gina@synergy-gps.com . She and Art can answer your concerns/questions and suggest an appropriate replacement Synergy GNSS solution, as well as data sheets and delivery availability.
—
Symmetricom bought the HP Time/Frequency Reference product line (x380xx); with just technology / firmware changes based on OEM parts availability.
In my case, I provided inside photos of my late model 58503B (which worked fine, with appropriate SCPI commands) and talked to Art Sepin.
Since my WNRO event was recent, and this late HP/Symmetricom model had not been tested by Synergy, I loaned my 58503B to Art Sepin.
Rick Hambly performed “bench tests” of different Synergy solutions (+M12 replacement using existing Goshay adapter; UT+/VP replacement w/o Goshay adapter).
Results with Synergy SSR were Faster locking to GPS constellation (<5 minutes); WNRO resolution; improved ADEV; and transparent operation with SatStat and Lady Heather. This was reported earlier this year (Feb 2024) on time-nuts.
greg
On Dec 26, 2024, at 10:07 AM, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Gregory,
So, in a nutshell, you are saying I can drop in a Synergy/UBLOX RX with no modifications? According to the link, the SSR-6T+ has reached end of life. Are they making other drop ins or is this the end of their foray into Mototrola replacements?
Both of my Z3805A/Z3801A GPSDOs are HP/Motorolas. Does this drop in apply, or is that only the Symmetricom units?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 7:18 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references, with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/071
5
07.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector (“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel), chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-D
r
op-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites, and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe
send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
hi Bob,
An antenna distritbution amplifier is what I use here to feed two Samsung UCCM GPSDO, a Furuno GPSDO and some random ham related stuff like a Motorola Tetra radio w/ GPS and a WSPR transmitter. Sofar I have not encountered any mutual interference. I feed my antenna using a separate biasT, and have DC-blocks on the individual GPS receivers. Note that doing so might give you antenna fault alerts (i.e. the receiver sees no current flow to feed the active antenna).
For a first experiment a passive splitter might do, with one of the GPSDO feeding the antenna, the others DC blocked. A 1:4 splitter is what I ran before I got my hands on the distribution amplifier.
Wilko
On 28 Dec 2024, at 17:48, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Wilko, Michael, Steve,& others,
You make a good point. I remember when they prohibited any type of receiver on an airplane. Any receiver can leak their local oscillator frequency out the antenna connector, and that would include GPS. S parameters would indicate how much signal can leak from the antenna amplifier output to the actual antenna and eventually radiate. And of course, as you said, the antenna amplifier can oscillate...
My antennas are separated vertically by about 3ft. I have them on a rope that I haul up a tree. My house has foil-based insulation and since the antennas are on the north side of the house, I need them to clear the roofline. The tree is high enough that the antennas "see" under the tree. I am at 40deg latitude.
Maybe an antenna distribution amplifier/splitter is in order? I will conduct the experiment and off the Trimble GPS while the Z380x boots up.
Thanks all,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Wilko Bulte wkb@xs4all.nl
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2024 5:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com; rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob,
Have you tried running only one antenna at a time? Reason why I ask is I recently had an interesting discussion with a ham operator who had (in his work, airport instrument landing systems) encountered a rogue GPS antenna who emitted signals on the GPS frequencies. Apparantly the antenna's amplifier had started to oscillate, turning that antenna into a rather effective GPS jammer. As you can imagine this is a rather slim chance, at the same time a bitch to figure out.
just my $0,02 of course.
Wilko
On 27 Dec 2024, at 20:46, rbenward--- via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Hi Greg,
Thanks for this information. I will follow through on this in January. For some reason, the lock of the GPS satellites are really bad with my Motorola receivers. I have two active GPS antennas outside on a pulley that I haul up a tree. With the antennas on the north side of the house, and being at 40deg latitude, I need them way up there to clear my roof, as the walls of the house have foil insulation. The tree is pretty high so the antennas can see underneath. It sounds unorthodox, but it works. Sometimes it takes a day for the GPS receivers to lock up. No rhyme or reason, but turning everything off, including the GPS program, seems to help. Sometimes I can track three or four satellites, but status page has no ALT or AZ information, and the GPSDO just sits there constantly adjusting frequency. Once locked up they behave quite well.
I am wrapping up my testing of the adapter board for the Oscilloquartz/UCT 8663 OCXOs. They seem to work OK, so I will be getting rid of the extra boards soon. My 10811 is near the end of travel with the internal adjustment, so I think I will be replacing it with the 8663 OCXO.
Thanks again,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2024 12:47 PM
To: rbenward@verizon.net; time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@lists.febo.com; Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
uBlox stated the EOL their earlier “6” series modules earlier in 2024;
https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/neolea-6t
Synergy products based on that series are ending, as noted.
April 24, 2024 announcement about LEA6 modules.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/EOL-Ublox-lea6-GPS-
receiver.pdf
Synergy stated they are transitioning to current uBlox LEA8 series. This was not unexpected, as uBlox stated intentions earlier (before COVID disruptions).
uBlox GNSS chipsets
https://content.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/GNSS
-product_Overview_UBX-14000426.pdf
Gina Aspeytia, at Synergy can be reached via telephone at 858-566-0666, or e-Mail at gina@synergy-gps.com . She and Art can answer your concerns/questions and suggest an appropriate replacement Synergy GNSS solution, as well as data sheets and delivery availability.
—
Symmetricom bought the HP Time/Frequency Reference product line (x380xx); with just technology / firmware changes based on OEM parts availability.
In my case, I provided inside photos of my late model 58503B (which worked fine, with appropriate SCPI commands) and talked to Art Sepin.
Since my WNRO event was recent, and this late HP/Symmetricom model had not been tested by Synergy, I loaned my 58503B to Art Sepin.
Rick Hambly performed “bench tests” of different Synergy solutions (+M12 replacement using existing Goshay adapter; UT+/VP replacement w/o Goshay adapter).
Results with Synergy SSR were Faster locking to GPS constellation (<5 minutes); WNRO resolution; improved ADEV; and transparent operation with SatStat and Lady Heather. This was reported earlier this year (Feb 2024) on time-nuts.
greg
On Dec 26, 2024, at 10:07 AM, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Gregory,
So, in a nutshell, you are saying I can drop in a Synergy/UBLOX RX with no modifications? According to the link, the SSR-6T+ has reached end of life. Are they making other drop ins or is this the end of their foray into Mototrola replacements?
Both of my Z3805A/Z3801A GPSDOs are HP/Motorolas. Does this drop in apply, or is that only the Symmetricom units?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 7:18 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references, with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/071
5
07.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector (“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel), chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-D
r
op-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites, and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe
send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Hi Wilko,
A distribution amp was on my list, as I only have two antennas but three RXs. So far, I plugged in the Z3801A at 12:03 EST, and it grabbed one satellite almost immediately, and now it is up to five, at 12:15. This is after a 24hr off period. As of writing this, six sats popped up at 12:17. So I guess the antenna interference theory is in play here.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Wilko Bulte wkb@xs4all.nl
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2024 12:03 PM
To: rbenward@verizon.net
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@lists.febo.com; Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
hi Bob,
An antenna distritbution amplifier is what I use here to feed two Samsung UCCM GPSDO, a Furuno GPSDO and some random ham related stuff like a Motorola Tetra radio w/ GPS and a WSPR transmitter. Sofar I have not encountered any mutual interference. I feed my antenna using a separate biasT, and have DC-blocks on the individual GPS receivers. Note that doing so might give you antenna fault alerts (i.e. the receiver sees no current flow to feed the active antenna).
For a first experiment a passive splitter might do, with one of the GPSDO feeding the antenna, the others DC blocked. A 1:4 splitter is what I ran before I got my hands on the distribution amplifier.
Wilko
On 28 Dec 2024, at 17:48, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Wilko, Michael, Steve,& others,
You make a good point. I remember when they prohibited any type of receiver on an airplane. Any receiver can leak their local oscillator frequency out the antenna connector, and that would include GPS. S parameters would indicate how much signal can leak from the antenna amplifier output to the actual antenna and eventually radiate. And of course, as you said, the antenna amplifier can oscillate...
My antennas are separated vertically by about 3ft. I have them on a rope that I haul up a tree. My house has foil-based insulation and since the antennas are on the north side of the house, I need them to clear the roofline. The tree is high enough that the antennas "see" under the tree. I am at 40deg latitude.
Maybe an antenna distribution amplifier/splitter is in order? I will conduct the experiment and off the Trimble GPS while the Z380x boots up.
Thanks all,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Wilko Bulte wkb@xs4all.nl
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2024 5:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com; rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover
Problem
Importance: High
Bob,
Have you tried running only one antenna at a time? Reason why I ask is I recently had an interesting discussion with a ham operator who had (in his work, airport instrument landing systems) encountered a rogue GPS antenna who emitted signals on the GPS frequencies. Apparantly the antenna's amplifier had started to oscillate, turning that antenna into a rather effective GPS jammer. As you can imagine this is a rather slim chance, at the same time a bitch to figure out.
just my $0,02 of course.
Wilko
On 27 Dec 2024, at 20:46, rbenward--- via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Hi Greg,
Thanks for this information. I will follow through on this in January. For some reason, the lock of the GPS satellites are really bad with my Motorola receivers. I have two active GPS antennas outside on a pulley that I haul up a tree. With the antennas on the north side of the house, and being at 40deg latitude, I need them way up there to clear my roof, as the walls of the house have foil insulation. The tree is pretty high so the antennas can see underneath. It sounds unorthodox, but it works. Sometimes it takes a day for the GPS receivers to lock up. No rhyme or reason, but turning everything off, including the GPS program, seems to help. Sometimes I can track three or four satellites, but status page has no ALT or AZ information, and the GPSDO just sits there constantly adjusting frequency. Once locked up they behave quite well.
I am wrapping up my testing of the adapter board for the Oscilloquartz/UCT 8663 OCXOs. They seem to work OK, so I will be getting rid of the extra boards soon. My 10811 is near the end of travel with the internal adjustment, so I think I will be replacing it with the 8663 OCXO.
Thanks again,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2024 12:47 PM
To: rbenward@verizon.net; time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@lists.febo.com; Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
uBlox stated the EOL their earlier “6” series modules earlier in
2024; https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/neolea-6t
Synergy products based on that series are ending, as noted.
April 24, 2024 announcement about LEA6 modules.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/EOL-Ublox-lea6-GPS
receiver.pdf
Synergy stated they are transitioning to current uBlox LEA8 series. This was not unexpected, as uBlox stated intentions earlier (before COVID disruptions).
uBlox GNSS chipsets
https://content.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/GNS
S
-product_Overview_UBX-14000426.pdf
Gina Aspeytia, at Synergy can be reached via telephone at 858-566-0666, or e-Mail at gina@synergy-gps.com . She and Art can answer your concerns/questions and suggest an appropriate replacement Synergy GNSS solution, as well as data sheets and delivery availability.
—
Symmetricom bought the HP Time/Frequency Reference product line (x380xx); with just technology / firmware changes based on OEM parts availability.
In my case, I provided inside photos of my late model 58503B (which worked fine, with appropriate SCPI commands) and talked to Art Sepin.
Since my WNRO event was recent, and this late HP/Symmetricom model had not been tested by Synergy, I loaned my 58503B to Art Sepin.
Rick Hambly performed “bench tests” of different Synergy solutions (+M12 replacement using existing Goshay adapter; UT+/VP replacement w/o Goshay adapter).
Results with Synergy SSR were Faster locking to GPS constellation (<5 minutes); WNRO resolution; improved ADEV; and transparent operation with SatStat and Lady Heather. This was reported earlier this year (Feb 2024) on time-nuts.
greg
On Dec 26, 2024, at 10:07 AM, rbenward@verizon.net wrote:
Hi Gregory,
So, in a nutshell, you are saying I can drop in a Synergy/UBLOX RX with no modifications? According to the link, the SSR-6T+ has reached end of life. Are they making other drop ins or is this the end of their foray into Mototrola replacements?
Both of my Z3805A/Z3801A GPSDOs are HP/Motorolas. Does this drop in apply, or is that only the Symmetricom units?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Beat via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 7:18 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Gregory Beat w9gb@icloud.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
Importance: High
Bob -
10 years ago, Bob Camp and Magnus Danielson had a time-nuts thread discussing the versions of HP/Symmetricom GPSDO time/frequency references, with Magnus noting the firmware capabilities (FPGA). I am not aware of anyone “releasing” (open source) that information.
https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2014-November/07
1
5
07.html
For my Symmetricom 58503B Reference (telco surplus), a late version, it internally used the same basic PC HP/Symmetricom PC board of the earlier models. However the antenna input section was BARE (No components for +5V injection, GPSantenna detection, etc.). The external GPS antenna connector (“N” female) was routed directly to a M12+ GPS board with an Goshay Adapter board for the (2x5-pin) header (for old Motorola Oncore VP/UT+ form factor).
Upon further investigations by Art Sepin and Rick Hambly it was discovered that an additional response was required from the Synergy SSR receiver to a Symmetricom Reference request (@@) for full operation with this late 58503B model.
BTW, the Synergy SSR receiver, using the uBlox chipset (multi-channel), chooses the “best in view” of the multiple satellites — and passes these onto the Symmetricom.
The SSR then converts the data stream to Motorola binary.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP-UT-and-GT-
D
r
op-In-ReplacementsTN484-B030624.pdf
Short Answer: A new uBlox receiver will provide faster locking operation, resolution to WNRO issue, access to larger “in view” satellites, and then choosing best 6, 8, or 12 satellites, while converting receiver data stream to the expected Motorola binary.
Symmetricom firmware (FPGA), to my knowledge, has not been released for upgrades.
gb
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:10:33 -0500
From: rbenward@verizon.net
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Samsung-Symmetricom GPSDO Rollover Problem
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@lists.febo.com, timenut@mi7.us
Cc: 'Scott Qi' scott.qi@gmail.com
Hi All,
So how does someone get the firmware chips to make this GPS change?
My Z3805A is using the Motorola GPS.
I would love to upgrade to something with more channels.
Does this change also apply to the Z3801A?
Bob
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