TWL: Re: Nobeltec news
As Peter pointed out it is the FCC not the FAA that bans cell phones on
airplanes. Note by the way it is not very well enforced. I would guess
that 25% or more of cell phones on airplanes are active. I have heard at
least 3 incoming calls in the past year. Note that cell phones are actually
active unless turned off.
The aviation guys have been trying to find a smoking gun in the electronic
hay stack for a long time now. Many, if not most, airline pilots believe
in the interaction as well proven. I think the one really interesting, turn
it on, turn it off, interference by a PC was unreproducible when Boeing
bought the lap top and chartered the airplane.
Gas stations are a little tricky. They periodically explode from improper
use of a plastic pail...so it is easy to blame any cell phone nearby.
Jim
Speaking of Boeing, does anyone know why my $12 cell phone would
threaten a 757? Seem to me, if there's any truth to the issue, the cell
phone manufactures should clean up their transmitters or Boeing should
harden its instrumentation?
From: "Arild Jensen" elnav@uniserve.com
Subject: TWL: RE: Nobeltec news
To: trawler-world-list@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: BNECIJAPJLFIGHEBBLIKAENLCHAA.elnav@uniserve.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Has everyone forgot that the founders of Nobeltec were employees of
Microsoft before they decided to strike out on their own.
What else do you expect. These guys learned everything they know from
Microsoft.
And I assume everyone knows that Nobeltec is now owned by
Jeppesen-Sanderson, the aviation chart people, which is now owned by Boeing.
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 "La Perouse"
Bellingham, WA
SNIP And I assume everyone knows that Nobeltec is now owned by
Jeppesen-Sanderson, the aviation chart people, which is now owned by
Boeing.
Speaking of Boeing, does anyone know why my $12 cell phone would
threaten a 757? Seem to me, if there's any truth to the issue, the cell
phone manufactures should clean up their transmitters or Boeing should
harden its instrumentation?
Regards.....
Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V "Curmudgeon" Marine Trader 44 TC
Currently Moored in Marathon, Vaca Key, FL
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't
do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from
the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain
-----Original Message-----
Philip J. Rosch wrote:
Speaking of Boeing, does anyone know why my $12 cell phone would
threaten a 757? Seem to me, if there's any truth to the issue, the cell
phone manufactures should clean up their transmitters or Boeing should
harden its instrumentation?
REPLY
The ban on cell phones is a general aviation safety issue. Cell phone are
also banned in places like ferry loading docks, gasoline pumping stations
etc.
Cell phones are active even when you do not place a call. The cell connects
to the master station to report its location within the network.
Such a transmission "might" cause RFI in a critical circuit and cause
untoward actions.
At least here on the west coast with large tide range, the ferry loading
ramps are adjusted to compensate for water levels using electric controls to
actuate the hydraulic rams. There is a fear that a cell phone might trigger
these controls at the wrong time.
The cell ban at gasoline stations came into effect a few years ago because
somewhere an explosion started a fire. There was a suspicion that the cause
was someone using a cell phone. To the best of my knowledge it was never
conclusively proven and demonstrated that cell phones do cause sparks in
pumps and do cause explosions. However, in the interest of public safety,
most authorities put into effect a ban on using cell phones near gasoline
pumps.
More to the point, there have been two documented incidents involving
cell phones and ship's equipment in Norway.
In one case it was found that using a cell phone in the vicinity of the
control box which operated the bow door on a ro-ro ferry caused the bow
doors to open.
In another case it was found that using a cell phone caused uncontrolled
steering commands to the autopilot.
Last year a cruise ship had an incident where the autopilot suddenly made a
hard over steering correction.
At 25 knots this caused the vessel to heel sharply and a number of people
were thrown about causing personal injury.
While I have not heard a definitive report on the matter, I do recall
speculation that a cell phone was possibly the trigger.,
More to the point, on our non regulated, non inspected, recreational boats
there is absolutely no assurance that some equipment will not cause
interference.
This has been a concern of mine for many years. More than once I have been
asked to fix a problem only to find the cause was cross interference with
onboard devices. As people bring more and more toys aboard, not to mention
cell phones, wireless remote controls, WiFi internet access etc. etc.
this will eventually pose a problem. The extent of the problem is not known.
So far no company in the recreational electronic field is doing any real
investigation into the matter.
At this point in time compliance to FCC part 15 is their sole concern. This
standard is hardly adequate since it merely addresses interference to
domestic broadcast services like radio and TV.
The introduction of Blue tooth technology is assumed to be safe but who
knows.
A number of industry leaders are concerned about spectrum pollution
causing interference with essential services like GPS.
The truth is we simply don't know to what extent sensitive electronic
controls can be affected by other electronic controls.
For that matter we don't even have construction standards that guide
builders in how and where to place cable runs for AC DC and data control
circuits in small vessels. ABYC certainly doesn't have comprehensive
details in their standards.
Cheers
Arild
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Arild
1- How come we don't have specific totally independant bandwiths for cell
phones, ferry-boats, airplanes, etc?
2- What you describe below, does it has the same side effect on the brain?
3- Time to back to Poney Express?
Ben
There is a fear that a cell phone might trigger these controls at the wrong
time.
The cell ban at gasoline stations came into effect a few years ago because
somewhere an explosion started a fire.
More to the point, there have been two documented incidents involving
cell phones and ship's equipment in Norway.
In one case it was found that using a cell phone in the vicinity of the
control box which operated the bow door on a ro-ro ferry caused the bow
doors to open.
In another case it was found that using a cell phone caused uncontrolled
steering commands to the autopilot.
-----Original Message-----
1- How come we don't have specific totally independant bandwiths for cell
phones, ferry-boats, airplanes, etc?
2- What you describe below, does it has the same side effect on the brain?
3- Time to back to Poney Express?
Ben
REPLY
-
We do have specific bands for each service but RF energy can also
create a rectified DC voltage in control circuits.
Harmonics also play a part. -
Who knows? This has been a subject of speculation and concern for
many years. Studies have been inconclusive. -
Maybe; if you are not allergic to horses and manure.
But the telegraph was soon found to supplant the pony express riders
since it was faster, needed no food and didn't sleep.
Besides, do you want a horse galloping back and forth on your dock al day
long? < grin>
Cheers
Arild
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Thursday, March 6, 2003, 6:42:05 AM, Arild wrote:
-----Original Message-----
Philip J. Rosch wrote:
Speaking of Boeing, does anyone know why my $12 cell phone would
threaten a 757? Seem to me, if there's any truth to the issue, the cell
phone manufactures should clean up their transmitters or Boeing should
harden its instrumentation?
REPLY
The ban on cell phones is a general aviation safety issue. Cell phone are
also banned in places like ferry loading docks, gasoline pumping stations
etc.
There is also a quite practical reason that cell phones should not be
used in aircraft: in flight, your cell phone will activate many cell
sites simultaneously, resulting in some confusion within the cell
system as to where your call is coming from, and which cell site
should handle the call. When (or if) that is resolved, you are still
blocking access to many cell sites for users on the ground.
--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver, B.C., Canada
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver-webpages.com/van-ps
Can someone please relate this subject on it's effect to our trawlers. I've
had no problems using a cell phone in conjunction with any thing on the
boats I've been priveleged to captain. Has anyone else ??
Dick Schroder
M/V PanHandler
43' Gulfstar Trawler
On the Ohio river @ Louisville
"Don't worry, be happy"
-----Original Message-----
From: trawler-world-list-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawler-world-list-bounces@lists.samurai.com]On Behalf Of Peter
Bennett
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 8:16 PM
To: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Subject: Re: TWL: RE: RE: Re: Nobeltec news
Thursday, March 6, 2003, 6:42:05 AM, Arild wrote:
-----Original Message-----
Philip J. Rosch wrote:
Speaking of Boeing, does anyone know why my $12 cell phone would
threaten a 757? Seem to me, if there's any truth to the issue, the cell
phone manufactures should clean up their transmitters or Boeing should
harden its instrumentation?
REPLY
The ban on cell phones is a general aviation safety issue. Cell phone
are
also banned in places like ferry loading docks, gasoline pumping
stations
etc.
There is also a quite practical reason that cell phones should not be
used in aircraft: in flight, your cell phone will activate many cell
sites simultaneously, resulting in some confusion within the cell
system as to where your call is coming from, and which cell site
should handle the call. When (or if) that is resolved, you are still
blocking access to many cell sites for users on the ground.
--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver, B.C., Canada
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver-webpages.com/van-ps
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There have been incidents of cell phones trigging changes in IV pumps
attached to patients at the Houston Medical Center. I agree with
Philip... cell phones aren't going away, so it seems like the issue
needs to be address by one side or the other. I watched a lady continue
to use her cell phone during takeoff awhile back on a commercial flight.
The flight attendants saw her using it right up until they strapped in
for takeoff and said nothing to her.
Arild Jensen wrote:
-----Original Message-----
Philip J. Rosch wrote:
Speaking of Boeing, does anyone know why my $12 cell phone would
threaten a 757? Seem to me, if there's any truth to the issue, the cell
phone manufactures should clean up their transmitters or Boeing should
harden its instrumentation?
REPLY
The ban on cell phones is a general aviation safety issue. Cell phone are
also banned in places like ferry loading docks, gasoline pumping stations
etc.<snip>
--
Keith
__
My idea of housework is to sweep the room with a glance.