GREAT Post!  Lot's of good info.

Subject: Teak deck refurb, re-post of 12/97 thread Sent: 6/15/98 1:35 PM To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com In response to several requests, here is most of the thread on refurbishing teak decks from December 1997, a period not yet covered in our archives. I'm re-posting it to the list as more than half of current susbcribers will not have seen it. --Listmeister Georgs Subject: Re: Teak Deck Refurb Sent: 12/10 12:35 PM Received: 12/10 8:29 AM From: Bryant Vann, vann@his.com Reply-To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com Randy, >I have bought a heated deck iron to remove the old caulking and am >thinking >that I will use a two part thyokol (spelling?) to re-caulk with. Sounds like a good plan (I presume you're referring to Detco when you say thyokol). I'd like to hear more about the iron -- I've just been scaping with the old bent file. You may find you'll need to deepen the caulking groove, especially if the deck has been sanded heavily (ouch). > Also, several bungs need to be replaced, but it looks like the old ones will >be tough to remove without buggering the screw holes. I only want to do this >job once, so any thoughts would be appreciated! OK, some thoughts. If you let the deck dry thoroughly, you should be able to carefully go over all the bungs with a knife blade. When you touching each loose one, you'll either see it move slightly, and/or hear a light "tick" sound -- indicating a loose or very thin one. Usually you can just "flick" these out with the end of the blade, revealing the screw beneath. The ones that are still good will not move and will be as solid sounding as the deck itself. Personally I leave the good ones alone. If the deck has been heavily sanded, however, even the "good" ones may have become so thin they they will continue to pop out from time to time. Whenever I find a loose one (or, heaven forbid, a missing one), I check all the nearby ones and repair any that are suspect. Where this gets tough is when "someone" has replaced the bungs using epoxy as an adhesive. getting the wood part out is pretty easy, but the residue of the epoxy around the edges of the holes will require a LOT of patience, to, as you said, avoid "buggering" the holes. (Why am I blushing? Why do they call me "bung man?" Hmmm...) If you are determined to remove all the bungs, one technique is to drill a pilot hole in the center of each one and put a wood screw in the hole. Tightening the screw into the screw beneath will usually lift the bung out clean (unless, of course, somebody used epoxy). An alternative is to buy some cheap screwdrivers and heat the end of the blade with a torch and then plunge the hot blade through the bung into the cross in the screw beneath. Don't forget that heat (even a surprisingly small amount) will destroy the adhesive properties of epoxy. Oh yes, I forgot to mention... One of the biggest problems in repairing epoxy-sealed bungs is that the epoxy gets into the cross, making it nigh unto impossible to get the screw out without melting the epoxy with the hot screwdriver or using a very small burr in you Dremel tool to cut it out. Why remove the screw? Well, if the bungs have been sanded thin enough to pop out, the screw has to be removed so the hole can be (carefully) countersunk further so the new bung will stay in place. Hmmm... this is going on longer than I figured, so I'll hang this up for a while. If it's boring everybody, we can take it offline. We still need to talk about: 1. How to clean the bung hole edges, re-size them so the new bungs can be tapped in so they will stay in place, and re-countersink the hole to a controlled depth 2. The right kind of screws to use to replace the ones with "munged" crosses (and maybe how to get the totally munged ones out in the first place) 3. Routing out the caulking grooves and using bond breaker underneath the caulking 4. Alternatives to epoxy for keeping the new bungs stuck in place (warning, I have had lots of arguments on this subject) 5. Making sure you have caulked in ALL the likely leak spots (some aren't all that obvious or easy to do) - Bryant Vann Salty Lady, Krogen 42 (who proudly "wears" her 1,405 teck deck bungs!) Subject: Re: Teak Deck Refurb Sent: 12/10 2:24 PM Received: 12/10 9:45 AM From: Bryant Vann, vann@his.com Reply-To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com Michael, >Bryant - Lets hear more. This is one of my next projects also. That's cool. Salty Dog, ne FaithPhil Dragon, has a teak boat deck, and just before she left the West River Cindy and I went over to say goodbye. I noticed there were a few spots up there that needed to be re-done. I only have a few minutes, so here's a tip on how to find some of the bad spots. Take a look at the deck after a rain (or just wet it down well with a hose). Now, watch as the deck dries. You may see that some areas may stay wet MUCH longer than the rest. These are spots where water has leaked below the surface, either where the caulking has failed or the boards have split deeply or the bungs have failed OR the water is coming in somewhere else and the water is coming OUT there (much more troublesome!). More later... - Bryant PS. I'd like to hear the "motor-mount" story. I still haven't managed to catch the delivery skipper on board. It sounded like there may be some lessons in there for us all. Subject: Re: Teak Deck Refurb Sent: 12/10 5:27 PM Received: 12/10 2:38 PM From: Bryant Vann, vann@his.com Reply-To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com Jerry & Pam, > GREAT Post! Lot's of good info. Wow, gosh, thanks... >If you get an opportunity, please address the other points (1 - 5) noted in >your e-mail response to Randy and include helpful hints for each. See below for some more... >With 1,405 teak deck bungs, you obviously have some experience. Yeah, but not all of it GOOD! >Happy Holidays! j Same to you and the other trawlererers on the list. ----------------- Back to getting the old epoxy out. I was looking over some old notes and found a comment that it *might* be possible to soften the expoxy around the edges of bung holes with a heat gun (or, you might want to start with a hair dryer, since it's real easy to "overdo" the use of a heat gun) so you can carefully scrape out the softened goo. 1. Cleaning and countersinking. There are several issues here, IMHO. First, you'd *like* to size the bung hole so that the bungs can be gently tapped in and they'll need little or no adhesive to keep them there. When it rains both the boards and the bung will swell a tad and keep the water out. OK, now the bungs I buy (I buy 'em in bulk, as you might have guessed) are 3/8" OD. The problem is that if you use a 3/8" bit for the hole, the bungs won't fit tightly. My solution was to get a 23/64" bit. That's *just* enough smaller to get a tight fit. Ah, but there's another thing you need to be careful about -- the wood at the edges of the hole *can* be VERY delicate near the surface -- PARTICULARLY at the forward and after edges of the hole (assuming here that the grain in the planks runs fore and aft). If you put this bit into an electric drill and poke it in, chances are pretty good the grain in these areas will split and lift out -- NOT cool! My solution (which *still* requires plenty of care -- it's not perfect) is to mount the bit into a LARGE size tap handle so that the drill bit can be slowly twisted by hand. I limit the bit depth by placing a doughnut-shaped collar around the end of the bit to insure the depth is correct (my boards are 1/2" thick. I'd like to leave 3/8" of wood under the screw heads, but I end with more like 5/16" to make sure there's enough at the top to hold the bung securely.) When the bit gets dull, toss it and get another, or it'll split the grain out too easily. 2. The *right* kind of screws. If the crosses are the *slightest* munged, I replace the screw (mine are 1", #8 screws). BE SURE to get FLAT-HEAD screws. If you happen to pick up OVAL-HEAD screws, take them back -- the extra depth required for the oval head will either reduce the wood under the screw head or reduce the wood above that's needed to "grab" the bung. More later.... - Bryant PS. More unsolicited "advice": Never, repeat NEVER, drive your trawler into water, no matter HOW wet it LOOKS, where you see BIRDS WALKING! This is a CLUE that it's NOT very DEEP! (Yeah, this is MORE, not necessarily GOOD, experience talking!) PPS. A LOT of folks agree with Capn. Wil that the bungs should be glued back in with epoxy. One expert, Rebecca Wittman (the lady who wrote the brightwork book) likes varnish. A deck expert I talked to in Annapolis prefers shellac -- he says it's waterproof, while varnish is not. My only problem with epoxy is that IF you ever have to get the bungs back out, the epoxy will represent a bigger challenge than the other alternatives. I DO agree that a sealant (I use 3M 101) *should* be used to seal the screw threads in the bottom of the hole. The whole point of all this is (behinds keeping the planks in place) is to seal the holes that penetrate the (hopefully) fiberglass skin beneath the teak. PPPS. I think CW makes it pretty clear, but I'd like to underscore the point. If you're using 3M 101, REMOVE THE TAPE immediately. If you wait even a few minutes, it will "skin over" and removing the tape will drag the skin off. Waiting a day more won't help either. Maybe waiting a week might, but, taking it off immediately after it's applied is the best procedure. Subject: Re: Teak Deck Refurb Sent: 12/10 8:11 PM Received: 12/10 3:18 PM From: Bryant Vann, vann@his.com Reply-To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com More on removing the screws. Wil mentioned that it real easy to damage the head of the philips head screws when you remove them (and, I agree, you MUST remove them to clean and probably deepen the hole to set the new bungs properly). It's worse than that -- OFTEN, since the screws are often installed with power equipment (or apes), the crosses may ALREADY be partially or completely munged already. The reversible drill approach is cool IF it doesn't slip. My experience has been that ONE SLIP is all it takes and now the cross is ruined and you then have to go the extractor route. I normally try to remove the screw maually first, putting my ENTIRE WEIGHT on the end of the screwdriver to hold it in place without slipping. This approach can "catch" the cross on all but the most badly damaged screws. Once it turns easily, I may go to the reversible drill if there's enough cross left. If you can't "catch" the cross, go get a screw extractor -- the type that doesn't expand the hole, if possible. Also, buy several COBALT drill bits for it (my extractors use a 1/8" pilot hole). These things chomp through stainless steel like crazy (I have a whole set, just for that reason). You might want to put a "teensy" bit of cutting fluid on the munged cross before you start, but you'll be risking the possibility it runs onto the wood in the hole, and that'll probably spoil your sealant/adhesive bond later on. Drill your pilot hole in the center of the cross and then follw the directions on the extractor. - Bryant PS. I LIKE Wil's suggestion to use square-drive screws. Subject: Re: Teak Deck Refurb Sent: 12/10 3:58 PM Received: 12/10 12:16 PM From: captnwil@coastalnet.com Reply-To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com I have been involved in this project since many of the joints in AfterSail, a Kadey Krogen 42, were damaged when a boat struck us in Hurricane Bertha. Here are some things I have learned. I can find NO CORRECT CURRENT INFORMATION about how to do this job. ************************************* DO NOT USE ANY TWO PART (Ducto) or other material for this job. It is so fluid that it will run out of any joints which are not level. In fact the product says "self leveling" and it will do just that and make the biggest mess you have ever seen. ******************************* Use 3M 101 or BoatLife Sandable Silicone. It will stay in place. 101 or other such products take 7 days to cure. The Boatlife product takes 24 hours and is really very nice. *********************************** When replacing bungs, remove the screws. You will have a hard time getting a clean hole otherwise. The screws in the Krogen are philips head and you will strip them unless you use care. Here's how to do it. A. Get a good variable speed drill with a reverse. B. Get TWO bits to fit the screws. For the Krogen that is a size 2. and a hammer. Use one bit in the drill. The other will be used with the hammer. Get a 3/8" pilot bit. C. Remove the old plug (I tell you how later) . D. Clean the top of the screw with a straight bladed screw driver blade. The width of the blade should be about 1/4". E. Position the free bit on the screw head into the indentions of the screw head and tap with the hammer. This will clean the gunk from the screw. F. Place the drill with phillips bit on the screw in a vertical position. Press down firmly, tap the drill into the screw head with your hand, and slowly apply power to remove the screw. If it slips, STOP. return to the other bit and hammer. Repeat this process until you can remove the screw. DON'T LET THE SCREW HEAD GET STRIPPED. If you do, there will be hell to pay. Stubborn screws will always yield to the hammer thing. If they don't get a screw extractor and take it out that way. Screw extractors can be found at any hardware store. G. Now clean the hole with the pilot bit. It goes faster if you have two drills. One for the pilot and one for the screw. H. Replace the screws with SQUARE SLOT HEAD screws. You will forever be thankful if you do -- the square slot does not strip and can be turned from most any angle. You can find them at West Marine. Before you drive the screw, put a drop of West epoxy in the hole. It does two things, it seals the deck where the screw penetrated the fiberglass and gives the screw a more secure holding. I. Dip a bung in West epoxy and place it in the hole. Then tap it in with the hammer. Gently, Gently, Gently! J. Wait a day. You can trim the bung with a sharp wood chisel. You should make sure that you push the chisel from the side of the bung where the grain of the bung will run up away from the chisel. If you don't, the bung could break off below the surface of the deck. You can easily bring the level of the bung to that of the deck with a power sander instead of the chisel. You can also take part of the bung off with the chisel and finish with the sander. ************************************************* Removing the Bungs A. Get a sharp 1/4" wood chisel. Push down on the bung with the chisel. If it moves any, it must be replaced. B. Hold the chisel perpendicular to the bung. Press down and turn the chisel. The bung will come out in short order and the hole will be almost clean. There will be a lot of bonding garbage left. In the Krogen, that is varnish. It is really very poor stuff for the bung hole and all bungs should be replaced with epoxy bonding. *************************************************************************** Seams A. That old file thing is for the birds. You will use two wood chisels. A modified 1/4" chisel and one which is 5/8" or larger. Make sure both are sharp and keep them sharp. If you don't know how to sharpen the chisel correctly, we'll talk about it later. B. take the 1/4" wood chisel to a machine shop and have it ground down with a machine that won't take the temper out of it until it is narrower than your joints. that will be between 1/8" and 3/16". C. Sit down on the deck with the seam between your legs. Place the larger chisel in the seam with the STRAIGHT side of the blade against one of the wood sides of the seam. Push the chisel away from you, cutting the edge of the caulking. Push it only a conformable distance. Do the same thing to the other side. If you use care in keeping the straight side of the chisel against the side of the joint, it will not come out of the joint. D. After you have cut as much of the joint as desired, return to the starting place and proceed as follows Place the beveled edge of the small chisel in the joint. Push down to get to the wood below the caulking. Now push the chisel straight ahead. It will cut the caulking free. In addition, you can deepen the joint if desired as you go. The joint should be at least 3/8" deep. More is better. You can do ten feet of joint in this manner in ten minutes. E. Clean the joint by turning the small chisel vertical and scraping the joint until you have fresh wood all around. ******************************************************************** Applying the Caulking A. TAPE or die. Use the best grade "Hardware" masking tape. You'll only need it for a short time and it is inexpensive. The requirement is that the edge stay attached while you work. B. Tape both sides of the joint right up to the edge. After taping, run the beveled side of the wide chisel over the joint to make sure the edge of the tape is in place tightly. The final appearance of the joint will be deterimned by how well you tape. C. Do this step or die Get a disposal container, trash can, bucket, box, etc. Put a plastic trash bag in it with the top folded over the top of the container so you can easily put stuff into it. GET A HELPER or you will have a mess later. D. Apply the caulking to ONE joint. You need to over fill the joint just a little. The first few times you do it, you'll fill it too much. E. Have your helper stand near you with the trash bucket. WARN THE HELPER UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH not to step on the joint and to stop you from stepping on the joint. F. Go to the head of the joint and pull the tape from the seam. Remember it has caulking on it, and it will get on everything. Use two hands, wind it up as you go. When you get to the end of a piece of it, put it directly into the garbage container. The tape will likely stick to your hands, and this is where the helper is necessary. The helper can help get the stuff into the container. G. GET AWAY FROM THE JOINT. There is a boat law which says that you or someone else will step in a wet deck joint. When you do, you're got one hell of a job. Drink a beer, don't admire the joint, next day you will be glad you did. H. Now your joint is finished. The taping made all the difference. ************************************************************ Good Luck Captn Wil Michael Elliott wrote: > Bryant - Lets hear more. This is one of my next projects also. > > Michael Elliott > Salty Dog > Krogen 42 > > Bryant Vann wrote: > > > Randy, > > > > >I have bought a heated deck iron to remove the old caulking and am > > >thinking >that I will use a two part thyokol (spelling?) to re-caulk with. > > > > Sounds like a good plan (I presume you're referring to Detco when you say > > thyokol). I'd like to hear more about the iron -- I've just been scaping > > snip Subject: Re: Teak Deck Refurb Sent: 12/10 8:11 PM Received: 12/10 3:18 PM From: Bryant Vann, vann@his.com Reply-To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com More on removing the screws. Wil mentioned that it real easy to damage the head of the philips head screws when you remove them (and, I agree, you MUST remove them to clean and probably deepen the hole to set the new bungs properly). It's worse than that -- OFTEN, since the screws are often installed with power equipment (or apes), the crosses may ALREADY be partially or completely munged already. The reversible drill approach is cool IF it doesn't slip. My experience has been that ONE SLIP is all it takes and now the cross is ruined and you then have to go the extractor route. I normally try to remove the screw maually first, putting my ENTIRE WEIGHT on the end of the screwdriver to hold it in place without slipping. This approach can "catch" the cross on all but the most badly damaged screws. Once it turns easily, I may go to the reversible drill if there's enough cross left. If you can't "catch" the cross, go get a screw extractor -- the type that doesn't expand the hole, if possible. Also, buy several COBALT drill bits for it (my extractors use a 1/8" pilot hole). These things chomp through stainless steel like crazy (I have a whole set, just for that reason). You might want to put a "teensy" bit of cutting fluid on the munged cross before you start, but you'll be risking the possibility it runs onto the wood in the hole, and that'll probably spoil your sealant/adhesive bond later on. Drill your pilot hole in the center of the cross and then follw the directions on the extractor. - Bryant PS. I LIKE Wil's suggestion to use square-drive screws. Subject: REMOVING DIFFICULT SCREWS Sent: 12/10 4:30 PM Received: 12/10 10:37 PM From: Jack Haring, Jack@Haring.ORG Reply-To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com I suggest you check-out the following: Sears Item Number: 47641 6-PC. HAND IMPACT DRIVER SET Loosens frozen or rusted fasteners. Includes 1/2-in. sq. drive tool, adapter; Nos. 2, 3, 4 Phillips and 3/8-in. slotted bits and pouch. Each hammer blow develops 200 ft./lbs. of torque... Weight: 2.13 lbs. Price: $ 19.99 This and other CRAFTSMAN tools are available at the following site: http://shop.sears.com/store/craftsman/tools.htm Just search on the keyword "47641". Using this tool is even better than trying to "put all your weight on it"! It works for me! Great postings about bungs & sealants, etc! Georgs: how about adding a reference page on your Trawler World site, at which all this great info would be compiled for future reference? Jack Subject: Re: Teak Deck Refurb -Reply Sent: 12/10 8:40 PM Received: 12/10 10:36 PM From: Norm Rose, ROSEN@email.exide.com Reply-To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com Well, I can't thank everyone who has responded to this topic enough. After the second response I started shaking my head back and forth, and it's about to fall off now. Y'all's experiences convince me that teak decks have NO place on the boat I will build in a few years. Railing caps, a few trim pieces for looks, that's it. The only way I would do it is if I (or someone else) can invent a way to permanently glue the deck in place and waterproof it at the same time. No holes, no screws, no leaks, no problems. I must say, too, all your recommendations and suggestions are top-notch! Thanks for sharing. By-the-way, another type of screw is a torx-head screw. The flutes are rectangular in profile, and can take much more torque than a phillips-head. Needs a torx-head screwdriver - not interchangeable with phillips. Also, there are many types of screwdrivers available with a metallized grit coating for better traction, which helps grip better too. Norm Subject: Re: Teak Deck Refurb Sent: 12/10 9:48 PM Received: 12/10 10:37 PM From: Bryant Vann, vann@his.com Reply-To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com To: Trawler World List, trawler-world-list@samurai.com ** Using bond breaker underneath the caulking to reduce "3-dimensional stresses." The idea here seems to be to bond the caulking to the *sides* of the channel, but not the bottom. How important is this? Dunno, but 3M recommends it with 3M 101. They recommend their fine-line tape for this. ** Using Marine Teak Primer with 3M 101. 3M is concerned that the oils in the teak will attack the 101 and break down the bond with the wood. The primer's function is to seal the oils in the wood. ** Making sure you have caulked in ALL the likely leak spots (some aren't all that obvious or easy to do) Caulking the seams between the boards is pretty obvious, but there are other ways water can get in -- under the edges where the planks butt against the deckhouse, bulwarks, or other vertical structures. When the planking was installed, it *should* have been bedded with caulking, and if (when?) that bedding breaks down, water can also get in around the edges and work its way to the screw holes (another good reason to put sealant at the bottom of any screws you're replacing). ** What happens if you ignore the bungs and caulking? You don't want to hear this. The coring under the deck will get wet, rot, and disappear. Then the only thing supporting the deck load is the teak planking, and it'll feel like you're walking on a trampoline. It can be fixed, but, wow! Some folks on our dock replaced the deck (without the teak, this time!) on a CT 54 (sailboat) after this happened, and it cost >$70K. Ouch! If you take a look at recently constructed boats, you'll see they don't use screws anymore (except on the strips right at the edge of the deck). The teak is now bonded to the fiberglass with epoxy. Voila, very few screw holes. And the teak adds a bit more strength to the deck instead of just being mostly an attractive, effective, non-skid overlay. (HOW 'BOUT THIS, NORM??) - Bryant