or Nova Scotia saturday. have at it, docmoss

full range of possibilities, so that we get as close as possible to our Perfect Passagemaker on the first try. All of us have bought a boat, and then wished we had done something differently. That's a lot of money wasted. If we educate ourselves on what the pros and cons of each option are, and leave breadcrumbs for others, we'll have done something of value. We've actually been doing that in an unstructured manner over the past couple of months; discussions of house battery banks, charging systems, hull types, stabilizers, length to width ratios etc. My suggestion would be that we pick one system at a time, according to our mood, and discuss it until we lose interest. I think I gave a list a few months back of what the "systems" on a boat might be: - Hull (wood, FRP, Steel, Aluminun, hull shapes, etc) - Propulsion (engine brands, single vs twin, fuel efficiency, value of wing engine, redundancy, engine controls, dripless shafts, prop selection, etc) - Communications (internet, ssb, epirbs, fax, vhf, nets) - Stabilization (active fins, paravanes, anti-roll tanks, etc) - A/C (conventional, chilled water, soft starts, vfds, etc) - Electrical (battery charging, inverters, diagnosing problems, international power, isolation and step-up transformers, cables, etc) - Entertainment systems (movie servers, sat radio, tv receivers, etc) - International cruising special requirements (international power adapters, passarelles, med mooring etc) - Galley (gas vs electric, best barbecue, grey water tanks, refrigerators, freezers, etc) - Monitoring systems (what needs monitored, what is possible, etc) - Cabins (Ventilation, port lights, mattresses, etc) - Tenders (davits, inflatable vs hard bottom, water toys, fendering, etc) - Ground tackle (snubbing, anchor selection, rode, winlasses, etc) - Diving (hookahs, compressors, tanks, etc) - Hydraulics (cooling, ??? - I'm a complete loss on hyrdraulics) - Navigation Systems (nav software, radar, ais, sonar, gps) - Fuel and oil (filters, cleaning, storing, transfer systems, filling, bio-protection, alleged efficiency enhancers etc) - Safety (rafts, flares, ditch bags, epirbs, sat radios, medical kits, life rings, survival suits, etc) I'm sure I forgot several systems in the list above, but you should see where I'm going with this. In short .. There are as many different "Perfect Passagemakers" as there are buyers. The best we can do is to help buyers know what to ask for - so, let's focus there. Rather than saying "What do I think makes a perfect boat?" we should say instead: "According to different cruising plans, and budgets, what are the possibilities, and how does a buyer pick between them, so they arrive at their Perfect Passagemaker?". -Ken Williams Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68 www.kensblog.com

No suggestions. High usage in production boats - nonsense. Out of 300 boats, 1 M miles in 5 years ? Note that the pennant program only captures the ones who trawler - not the 2/3 who stay home. Average is average, not average of travellers. Does not like me to criticise too-expensive junk. The sub zero would be an example. y known as Trawler World Productions.

...what is the hull material, what is the general arrangement etc....and try to limit the discussion to these topics until they are almost defined. I say almost, because they can always be revisited, but you gotta start somewhere! Just my two cents... Thanks, Brian

ch order you tackle systems, because there are no right or wrong answers. For instance, you mention hulls. I would contend that every possible hull is a valid option for the "Perfect Passagemaker," because there is no one perfect boat. Is there a buyer for whom each possible hull type is the right answer -- sure. There occasionally might be a case where one system affects another, but this is rare. A discussion of nav systems is the same whether you have a wood, FRP, steel or aluminum hull. A discussion of ground tackle is the same, whether you have one engine or two, etc. -Ken Williams Sans Souci, N6805 www.kensblog.com

reme end of passagemaking vessels, opposite end of spectrum from most production boats, but likely closer to where this PPM thread should be taking us, albeit we'd like to produce a smaller vessel at significantly lower cost. (The production vessel that has emerged from Steve's work, the FPB64, is still $2-3 million USD, and likely above the range that we want to focus our PPM effort toward.) Steve has very publicly discussed his concepts, tradeoffs and decision processes on his web page, and has always been open to discussion. He's laid out his decisions and rationale for building as he did, system by system. If we start from there, looking for cost reduction opportunities by examining different approaches, system by system, we'd at least be starting from a proven concept of an extremely reliable and comfortable passagemaker. It would also impose some "comparative evaluation" structure on the discussion. As we used to say back when I was an engineer, "there is nothing more terrifying than staring at a blank sheet of paper." Better to start with something and work our way from there to the place we want to be. Here's the primer: http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_PARADIGM.html John On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:49 AM, Brian Smyth wrote: > Good Morning Ken, > > I agree with your post in that I think there needs to be structure in > the discussion as it does tend to wander a bit. > > My suggestion (however humble) is that you might want to approach the > discussion in much the same way that a designer approaches the > design or > a builder might build the boat. > > In other words, focus on the big picture first...what is the hull > material, what is the general arrangement etc....and try to limit the > discussion to these topics until they are almost defined. I say > almost, > because they can always be revisited, but you gotta start somewhere! > > Just my two cents... > > Thanks, > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.